Jump to content

Masterpiece Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi


flo06

Recommended Posts

Hello members,

Who said that it is no longer possible to find master's swords without certificate in Japan ? ;) (The hozon has just been requested by myself.)
So, I would like just to share with you this gorgeous blade. A very rare and beautiful example of the work of Mizuta Oyogo Kunishige.

 

Regards

 

 

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (1).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (2).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (5).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (8).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (9).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (11).jpg

Oyogo Kunishige Wakizashi sabre japonais (12).jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Brian said:

Bit more that tricky then :laughing:
I have an out of polish large Mizuta Kunishige katana that I have hopes oneday to have polished, think it would be awesome. Wanted to compare mei.

 

This one i sold 2 years ago is from the same smith (tokuho for both blade and koshirae) 

 

 

 

IMG_2589.JPG

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Dear Jaques.

 

Lovely sword!  That's just how a nakago should look and we see so many that have suffered neglect.  Any more pictures of the blade?

 

All the best.

 

Sorry but  i only kept those of nakago and one of koshirae for my personal documentation.  

IMG_2362.JPG

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The certificate is from 2009. 

 

You took a long time to show us! 

 

Someone removed the mei, reshaped the nakako and added a mekugi-ana. I suppose, to make it pass as Nanbokucho Soshu work. In this context, it's important to recognise that the attribution is more of a shinto shrug than a slam-dunk. 

 

This is quite typically the type of sword you'll find in Japan without certificate. It's important to buy it knowingly, and for what it is. 

 

It's nice work. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Valric said:

The certificate is from 2009. 

 

You took a long time to show us! 

 

Someone removed the mei, reshaped the nakako and added a mekugi-ana. All out of greed, I suppose, to make it pass as Nanbokucho Soshu work. 

 

 

 

You are apparently not be used to seeing NBTHK certificates.
The certificate is from September 2, 2020...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, flo06 said:

You are apparently not be used to seeing NBTHK certificates.
The certificate is from September 2, 2020...

 

Ahem, in the perforated date 02-2020-09 the 02 stands for second year of the Reiwa era.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the date written on your certificate is:

 

令和   (Reiwa)
二 年  (2nd year)

十一月   (11th month)

九日   (9th day)

 

i.e. November 9, 2020.

 

It's not entirely clear to me why the month in the perforated date (September, in this case) is often earlier than the month in the calligraphy. Maybe that is the month in which the blank certificate was made.

 

Cheers, Pietro

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PietroParis said:

 

Ahem, in the perforated date 02-2020-09 the 02 stands for second year of the Reiwa era.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the date written on your certificate is:

 

令和   (Reiwa)
二 年  (2nd year)

十一月   (11th month)

九日   (9th day)

 

i.e. November 9, 2020.

 

It's not entirely clear to me why the month in the perforated date (September, in this case) is often earlier than the month in the calligraphy. Maybe that is the month in which the blank certificate was made.

 

Cheers, Pietro

 

 

 

 

Is he wrong ?

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html#japanese_sword_4

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes he is. You can check any number of NBTHK certificates, the first two punched numbers always coincide with the year of the relevant Japanese era. Indeed, in the linked example 2000 was the 12th year of the Heisei era. Also note that, even in that certificate, the date written in the calligraphy (December 27) is a bit later than the punched month would imply.

 

If you don't buy it, just try to find a counterexample!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe you right. Thank you for your opinion.
But to be honest with you, I don't care. The subject wasn't the authenticity and date of the certificate, and in posting this, I didn't think I would be called a liar.

To be clear, I deposited the sword at the NBTHK in September 2020, and received the certificate in early March 2021. An NBTHK certificate is not issued in a week.
That's all. End of the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Geraint,

The story is relatively simple.

I bought this blade on (bad) photos with the help of a Japanese friend based in Tokyo. When I saw it I immediately thought of a pretty Soshu den of course (I love Soshu work). And the reason I took the risk of buying it on bad photos was precisely because it was mumei. So I was hoping for a good surprise, it was simply a bet.
In any case, I didn't expect Oyogo Kunishige at all, even if this verdict is not so surprising since the Mizuta school strove to copy the works of the Soshu den with a somewhat different aspect of the nie.

 

Regards,

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, flo06 said:


In any case, I didn't expect Oyogo Kunishige at all, even if this verdict is not so surprising since the Mizuta school strove to copy the works of the Soshu den with a somewhat different aspect of the nie.

 

 

 

 

Hum,

 

This is far from a generalization and Degore's book is not detailed enough.

 

 

Mizuta.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Jacques, I know that you are a great expert, much bigger than Degore and the NBTHK combined.
Your knowledge of the Japanese sword has no limits. 

Thank you very much for enlightening me with your immeasurable knowledge. :bowdown:

 

Indeed, there are of course always exceptions, which is why most historical fields are so complex. It cannot be an exact science.

That said, here we can easily see that Degore's "generalization" is not without meaning.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
  • Downvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might sound like a cheap shot After seeing the papers, but I think this is classical later Mizuta work. Strongly nie-sunagashi based gunome with nie actually "separating" from the base of the hamon.

Interestingly enough, ko Mizuta blades, each one I saw had unusually strong hada, but also each one was in its own style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mister Flo, 

 

Before all, learn to read correctly that others say, i said  :"This is far from a generalization and Degore's book is not detailed enough.", nothing else and I do not judge the knowledge of Degore.  

 

Can you tell us in which proportion the swords of the Mizuta school are inspired by the Soshu den ?

 

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a very tricky kantei, to evaluate shinto work with a soshu inspiration. These kantei shouldn't be taken too seriously. It's a best guess.

 

I'll preface by saying again that it's a nice sword and it has a strong Shinto Soshu-inspired character, with the pronounced ara-nie, sunagashi etc. 

 

For all the anons reading this forum regularly, I would like to explain a bit more why this is typically the type of sword which will be found without papers in Japan. The reason is that it is more profitable to attract a gambler and sell it for what it isn't (late Nambokucho Soshu) than to have it papered and sell it as a mumei shinto piece. So even if it had papers in the past, the way to make money on this is to dump the papers in the fire and put it up on Yahoo JP with a fresh Sayagaki and cobble up some story. These are the economic incentives at play.  

 

Before the nitpicking occurs I will just say that unpapered swords in Japan which would kantei to grandmasters do obviously exist. However, they get trawled by the dealer filter and they will paper those worth papering and dump the gambles in YJP! or to some other dealer at their auction until the system sorts itself and that everyone can make a bit of money. Shrines, old collectors, etc, have unpapered swords. There are also discoveries being made where a "sword stash" is found hidden in traditional houses. Generally the person who finds them will go the dealer and when she or he hears the costs and time involved in the restoration and all the social stress associated with owning weapons in Japan, they go for money now. The encounter with police can be terrifying and after the stress associated with the torokusho process, these objects are more likely to be seen as problems to solve than objects to keep and restore. The social stigma helps the business model. 

 

What needs to be understood is that mumei pieces from the shinto period are radioactive in Japan. It's a big value drop. I bought a sword to Naotane once for about 5K, had the signature been preserved it would be worth 30-40K on the Japanese retail market, that's just the way it is. Which means it's also a great occasion to get top quality work from a famous school if one is ready to accept this flaw (which I accept readily given budget constrains). The most likely reason for a shinto sword to be mumei is that it's been used as a deceptive device to extract money from an unsuspected buyer via fraud. It's not just signature...even a little machi okuri can be what can be seen by new collectors as an unreasonable debasement of value. Shinto strives for perfection in condition. 

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Bla bla bla...
These kantei shouldn't be taken too seriously, but the totally hypothetical comments from someone who thought that I were a liar and this certificate was from 2009 must be ?
As we say in France, with "ifs" I can remake the world ...
I bought this blade less than 200K yen. It's ok ? Do we agree ? (
it's a rhetorical question)

I'm done here, good luck guys.

 

 

  • Confused 1
  • Downvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From someone who is a dealer and an important member of the french side of the hobby, I would have hoped for a more articulate counterpoint. 

 

We can agree that goal here is education. This isn't the dealer page, it's fair game to debate these blades when big words such as "Masterwork" get tossed into the fray.

 

This is the type of words one needs to be ready to defend. Masterworks of Nihonto are (likely to be) Tokuju-level and beyond. Either they are extremely rare or the word is meaningless. There is no middle-ground. We are fortunate to be in a hobby with 800 years of collecting history and numerous treaties and evaluations published, and while these aren't perfect - far from it - they do set a high-bar for argumentation and this is the level of engagement we should strive for. 

 

This is a fair work of the Shinto period which had its signature erased to pass as something it isn't. And there is nothing "wrong" with this. It stands on its own as what it is. 

 

What it isn't is a masterwork, just as this isn't a soshin Muramasa: http://nihontofrance.com/nihonto/sunobi-tanto-signe-muramasa/. Nor is its Koshirae made by Toshinaga. I would come to think that in the internet era, we should label these things for what they are (or likely to be) and not fish for true believers by being vague. 

 

That's all really. We should all strive to be better and to own up to our mistakes (as I have about the date I mangled). 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...