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george trotter

Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

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5 hours ago, george trotter said:

These are what I have found for NIIGATA

Thanks George.  That will give me plenty to search for, for now.  One thing I just realized is that these katakana stamped numbers only show up in 1943 and '44, with most of them, currently, in '44.  So that will really reduce the pool of blades to find others.  Well, off to the searches.

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12 hours ago, george trotter said:

Igarashi      Akimitsu      NIIGATA  star      1943   'ta' 1246

Yamagami Munetoshi* NIIGATA  star  3/1944    'ta' 2353    (*his later mune mei kanji)  and BTW, don't know where the error crept in, but its  fittings are not Type 98, they are Type Rinji (see montanairon pics above).

Got my first hit:

Sadaroku, 1943, Ta 1361; fittings not shown but only 1 mekugi ana; thread by our own @vajo

So 3 in the Niigata area with the same katakana.

 

Like much of this kind of work, I went through several Sadaroku with no numbers at all, but the few I've seen like that were dated earlier than '43.  I haven't finished the search on him yet.

 

Edit: Make that 4: Feb '44 Sadaroku, 2383.

Update: No luck on numbered blades for Sadakiyo and Yoshimitsu

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Great stuff. Yes, I looked at that original pic you linked to Bruce, so now you have three from Niigata...all " ta ".

Seems it might be a Prefecture mark....lots of research still needed...

Life never gets boring with RJT.

Regards,

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Found a Star-stamped Kiyokatsu, 1943, number 86, but no katakana.  Don’t know what to think about that.

 

I am finding blades by these guys with no numbers, with numbers but no katakana, and with katakana and numbers.  Regardless of what that means, if the katakana that do show up seem to be from particular areas, then we still have something to work with.  haven’t finished the Kiyokatsu search.

 

edit: finished, no luck in him.  @george trotter if you can give me some names from one of the other provinces I’ll run a search on them.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.e9309584724c8c29268dcf91c82c2d13.jpeg

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On 4/13/2021 at 9:54 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Found a Star-stamped Kiyokatsu, 1943, number 86, but no katakana.  Don’t know what to think about that.

 

I am finding blades by these guys with no numbers, with numbers but no katakana, and with katakana and numbers.  Regardless of what that means, if the katakana that do show up seem to be from particular areas, then we still have something to work with.  haven’t finished the Kiyokatsu search.

 

edit: finished, no luck in him.  @george trotter if you can give me some names from one of the other provinces I’ll run a search on them.

 

 

I think it a bit early to make any conclusions beyond saying (it seems) that "ta" is Niigata. and seems to be only on RJT swords.

But whose code...is it RJT code? RJT contract mounter shop  code?  

This "ta"/ number system seems to come in maybe late 1942 and is in use by 1943, already at 1000+

About names from other provinces Bruce, will all keep our eyes open for any katakana/number coded swords for sure, but maybe best to stick to the Niigata ones for a while and see what turns up?

I mean...See if they appear consistently on RJT tangs and fittings, or just fttings ...or tangs with different marks on fittings...or? (my head hurts).

regards,

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On 4/7/2021 at 12:58 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

I also have an undated Nagamitsu with イ313 on mune.  Unfortunately, I don't have the fittings. 

20200807_204014.thumb.jpg.69d2714f1ee63d9a8d151f61fa7b69f1.jpg

Bruce

Did you notice the"阪“  mark on the left?

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1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

"阪“  mark

Yes, thanks though.  Saka of the Osaka Army Arsenal.  Yours and @Ed Hicks Sadakatsu are the only 2 I have from our postings.  I have 5 others from books and Richard Fuller's survey.  The 3 from Fuller's survey are "unknown mei" and the 2 from the Cillo/Slough book are Masayoshi and Sadashige.  All dated in 1943-1944.

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I was just reading an older post about  RJT and saw this...can't remember if we've discussed this before, but it may be the answer to the katakana mark....sorry if I'm repeating...

Looking at a post by vajo titled "Informations about the RJT" Oct 25 2017.

I looked at response post #11 dated Aug 4 2019. In this Bruce, you quote Chris Bowen about how the RJT system was set up, worked etc...

Again in your  response post # 13 Aug 4  2019 you mention inspections etc.

 

The basic fact is that the RJT sent inspectors into the regions to check/stamp or reject the swords produced by each RJT contracted smith...

So I was thinking....COULD IT BE that the katakana mark is simply the mark of the RJT inspector...not so much the province? If the inspector was reassigned to another province the mark would turn up on tangs from there also.

Or am I going loopy again....

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7 hours ago, george trotter said:

COULD IT BE that the katakana mark is simply the mark of the RJT inspector...not so much the province? If the inspector was reassigned to another province the mark would turn up on tangs from there also.

Or am I going loopy again....

I have long wished for some real-world insight into the inspection process, or a directive about it, or an old interview with one of them.  Why do some star-stamped blades have no other stamps at all, while others have a single, double, or even triple additional stamps?  Why do some have, for example, a Na & Se, while others have double Na or double Se?  But now you're going to make my head spin, too!

 

What you propose very well could have been the truth.  It would take finding 2 different katakana on blades from the same prefecture, to verify that idea. Along that line though, I recall @Kiipu pointing out that the Tenzoshan anchor was a military inspector stamp specific to the Tenzoshan production.  Same thing for several of the Army arsenal branch offices.  The marks were specific to the operation being supervised.  My gut feel, until we see evidence otherwise, is that these are tied to the area.  Hopefully we will find other katakana-marked blades to point one way or the other.

na

名古屋陸軍造兵廠監督課

Nagoya Army Arsenal Supervisory Section

seki

名古屋陸軍造兵廠関監督班

Seki Supervisory Unit of Nagoya Army Arsenal

saka

大阪陸軍造兵廠監督課

Ōsaka Army Arsenal Supervisory Section

ko

小倉陸軍造兵廠監督課

Kokura Army Arsenal Supervisory Section

yama

小倉陸軍造兵廠松山出張所

Matsuyama Branch Office of Kokura Army Arsenal

matsu

小倉陸軍造兵廠大阪監督班

Ōsaka Supervisory Unit of Kokura Army Arsenal

e

小倉陸軍造兵廠松江監督班

Matsue Supervisory Unit of Kokura Army Arsenal

kuma

小倉陸軍造兵廠熊本監督班

Kumamoto Supervisory Unit of Kokura Army Arsenal

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Yes, I think it is a matter of recording marks/numbers/provinces/smiths until maybe we'll see a pattern emerge that is firm enough to make a bit of a judgement on.

Keep up the good work Bruce....we'll keep sending you stuff as we come across it.

Regards.

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