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More help Type 95 NCO date?


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Hello all,

I am a new collector and I just picked up my first Type 95 NCO.  Members on another forum confirmed it is legit so with a heavy exhale I wanted to get right to learning more about it.  I know it is a later model with a Nagoya stamp but was wondering what year? Bruce thought it was 1944ish and said others would chime in on what they were thinking, so wanted to get a consensus.  Another member noticed that the nut might not be quite right for this model, so was wondering if there were any thoughts on that?  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Elco68

Type 95 A.jpg

Type 95 B.jpg

Type 95 C.jpg

Type 95 D.jpg

Type 95 E.jpg

Type 95 F.jpg

Type 95 G.jpg

Type 95 K.JPG

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Welcome Elco,

You are right in it being a legitimate Nagoya Arsenal sword.

It is the 'Rinji' pattern, that is due to demand for metals such as Copper and Brass for other areas in the war effort, the Brass guard (tsuba) was replaced with a plain round steel version, as were the washers and screws and tassel ring.

Some came out with the copper collar (fuchi) where the Arsenal and Contractor stamps are placed, yours, had this also changed with a steel one.

Due to the hardness of the steel, it caused issues with the stamping process, some are faintly seen, but generally the stamping was omitted on these versions.

 

As it has the Locking mechanism at the Top of the handle, it is the third pattern in the type 95 range.

 

It was made under the Kokura Administration of Arsenals for Sword Production, so before 1942.

After this time, each Arsenal was in charge of its own production with their own allotted serial number ranges.

As a general guide i would place it being made about April/May 1942.

Not long after, when Nagoya was under self Administration, it changed to the Side locking mechanism and began producing only this variant. ( firstly Aluminium Handles , then the wooden 'pineapple' Handled swords- all side locking)

 

I looked into the 'nut' for the screw in the handle, and yes it looked a bit odd to me at first also, but having checked on other swords of the same variation (steel screw/nut), in the same serial number range, i can confirm it is also legit.

 

Overall it is a nice example and you should have nothing to worry about.

You can find more information  on these at Ohmura's Web page here: http://ohmura-study.net/957.html    It will give you a good primer on these and many other models.

 

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Any better pictures of the nut? The one provided looks a little flat and textured (no big deal), but I can't see the two slots for the somewhat unique tool they used.

 

If it looks like this then it's fine, whether it's a little flat or bumpy.

 

These are nice swords, usually in good condition too. Looks like a tidy example and still has the sarute which is a bonus.

 

20210320_132829.jpg

 

Edit: Found a much better picture that Stegel posted on another forum showing the nuts...

 

 

1095908d1500953534-short-development-history-type-95-gunto-punch-marks.jpg

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Not to worry, there's usually a few oddities and Stegel has got other examples that match. I'll have to leave it for Stegel to discuss further though as I don't recall any examples of nuts like that before. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that an arsenal would suddenly change the design for a handful of swords and without those slots, it would be rather difficult to remove the nut for any sort of repair work required. The same basic nut system carried on through all main patterns until the end of the war, with a special head required to fit both slots. I don't know why there would be any exception to this. However, some strange things happened during the war (sword blades missing or with bohi contrary to conventional wisdom, thickness of tsuba varying on pattern 5, different bolts on pattern 1-2 transitional model are a few examples), so if there are a few other examples of this nut to reference then it'll just be one of those funny things to speculate over. Will also be an extra titbit of information that's not widely known.

 

I will say that the nut looks considerably flatter than standard, almost like it has been ground down. It certainly looks old and the patina is perfect for the sword.

 

Looking forward to seeing more examples to reference and thoughts on why there was a sudden and very limited design change.

 

Edit: All the nuts seen from pattern 1-8 require this tool to properly remove. Well, a screwdriver like this. I believe Bruce actually made one for himself by grinding a standard flathead?

 

 

20210320_154140.jpg

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Thank you Shamsy for all your help and knowledge . It is greatly appreciated as I have read many of your threads and posts in trying to learn more about these swords.

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18 minutes ago, Elco68 said:

Thank you Shamsy for all your help and knowledge . It is greatly appreciated as I have read many of your threads and posts in trying to learn more about these swords.

 

There's a wealth of information on this forum from a number of members. It's great to have a place like this to refer to and ask questions and discuss new discoveries and theories. Hope you enjoy your sword and learning about Type 95s. Stegel, myself and Trystan are primarily 95 collectors, but there's a ton of others here with a great knowledge of these and many other types of Japanese military swords. For the most part, people are very happy to help with any specific questions you might have.

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9 hours ago, Shamsy said:

I believe Bruce actually made one for himself by grinding a standard flathead?

Must have been someone else.  Before I found out that they make tool tips like this, I used this:

20180831_084743.jpg.6fca846f606cd9eeab1c5cd35ebba11c.jpg

 

I also think this nut has been broken or ground down.  Clearly original to the war, though.  When I first saw his post, on another forum, I only saw the black screw head and thought it was modern.  Didn't realize they came in black.  Learned something new!

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Must be someone else who also likes to take things apart!

 

I agree with your assessment, Bruce. The nut definitely has the patina, but it is not standard to the same type used from start to finish of 95 production. It would be very difficult to remove or tighten. The flat tip of the screws were punched to help retain the screw already and removal would be considered necessary for repair, so I can't see the sense of it. I'm not sure how you would grind it and then fit and tighten it either. The point of the original system was that you could tighten or undo the screw and nut by applying force to both sides simultaneously. 

 

It appears that the tip of the screw protrudes a fair way, when it would otherwise be flush with the nut when tightened. Can you please confirm that @Elco68 and that it's not just a trick of photography?

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11 hours ago, Shamsy said:

The nuts were rounded and flush to prevent edges from catching in the hand, so that's quite unusual. Thank you very much for confirming, Elco.

Yes, I agree with you, Steve. That is not standard for 95's. Even though the patina looks old, I still think the washer is a very big chance postwar mod instead of wartime fixed.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ha!  I just had a thought - what if the nut is upside down?  There is only one way to know..........

+1

Exactly my thought too Bruce.

 

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6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ha!  I just had a thought - what if the nut is upside down?

 

And the slot would act like a lock washer when tightened down too.  The down side would be the protruding screw interfering with the hand grip.  Elco68, when gripping the sword, do you notice this protrusion?

 

I take it your handle relates somehow to the Electric Launch Company (Elco), possibly PT boat related?  Inquiring minds what to know!

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6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ha!  I just had a thought - what if the nut is upside down?  There is only one way to know..........

 

Great thought, Bruce! Now that I look at it that seems like an obvious answer, but you're the only one to pick it up! It should be pretty easy to check too.

 

@Elco68, are you able to see any signs the nut might be the wrong way around? Ideally, would you be able to safely undo the screw? With a little care nothing should get damaged. A well fitting screwdriver and a pair of pliers with soft leather over the teeth should do. If it is just on the wrong way, it would be better to put it back the right way anyhow!

 

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The down side would be the protruding screw interfering with the hand grip.

 

And probably being harder to remove. But hope Elco will test that...

 

Edit: Made Bruce a meme...

 

 

52lm1q.jpg

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I will definitely try it.  I am out of town until Tuesday so I will have to wait until then to make attempt. As far as it protruding when I hold the sword, to be honest I didn’t pay too much attention as this was my first Type 95 I was just pumped to be holding it. Elco68 handle comes from my 1968 El Camino I am restoring. Thanks for all the help everyone-this forum is awesome!

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Fantastic and well done, Bruce! Right on the money, the nut was just on backwards. Sometimes the simple solution is right there in front of us but you were the only one to see it.

 

Cheers for the update, Elco68.

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