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Flower picture on saya


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I would like to know if this decoration on my sword's saya is indeed a flower,

as a friend reckoned it to be a dragonfly. The blade is circa 1680,

but I don't know if the saya can be that old.

Perhaps members know it as a common decoration 

and can tell me what it represents.FlowerPicture.jpg.5acfc3ed9fa5423a9b4a46ac9f95072a.jpg

There are five of them in total. I can just feel the slightly

raised design as I move over it with a finger.

It's not metal, I don't think. Please advise. Johan.

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John, Chris & Brian, thank you. Perhaps more suggestions as to the "flowers" will come in, as it seems a positive ID has not yet been made. While the prayer papers have been mentioned, I might as well post pics of the kashira and kojiri as well. Any comments you have on them will be appreciated. This is great, to at last be communicating with folks with shared nihonto interests! Johan  

SamSwaardFred555.jpg

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Jean and Stephen have cast a gloomy shadow over the saya with its makie, prayer papers and other parts of the koshirae. The thing is, rather the truth be known than to live in a fool's paradise!  So bring it on, I say. I had believed the embellishments to be silver, and of an appropriate age suiting the katana. I must say, the saya lacquerwork is truly beautiful and I had wondered how such an old saya could have remained so neat. The previous owner merely said he had always thought the sword and its mounting had been made at the same time. The tsuba is silver, according to a friend dealing in silver and gold, and I see it is signed as well. I'll put up some more pics. (And no hard feelings from my side, Stephen and Jean!) Johan  

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Jean, before posting the pictures, I need to explain why I have not shown the blade. I'm inexperienced and new in this forum and I believed I must ask blade questions on the dedicated Nihonto board and koshirae questions on this general Nihonto-related board. On that board I've started with "Lucky dragon on tang" and am in the process of posting pics of the signature and date mei. Please advise if I'm getting it wrong. So far the discussion there has got my blade as Edo 1680. I still have to show pics that it's made by Nobuyoshi and enquire whether I am still on track. Johan 

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The kozuka looks to be very good. You need to post better pics of that.
The other fittings appear to me to be modern....like yesterday. And not Japanese. Maybe made by an amateur restorer/jeweller.
The tsuba may be real and old, but has been buffed "in it's moer" and is pretty much destroyed. The wrap is modern and incorrect.  Menuki appear to be modern too.
Blade is a SA restoration...Adrian or Gus way back? Sorry to be blunt. But the blade is the most important part of this package, so let's see the tang?

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Brian, I'll put up some pics of the two kozukas and one kogai I have, soon. Concerning the tsuba, dis ook seker al manier waarop 'n mens 'n boggerop kan beskryf! Too bad one cannot just turn back the time and undo the damage.  Concerning the blade, as I said the blade is being discussed in the Nihonto section under "Lucky Dragon on Tang". I apologize once again if I should have kept to one board.

But what about the saya itself and that wonderful lacquer job it has? Any possibility that it had been with the blade all along and has been spared the ravages besides the fittings which then seems to be later additions?

And who is Gus and Adrian? Johan

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Jan,

the photos do not allow to read the signature of the TSUBA correctly, but it may read ECHIZEN KINAI. If so, it could well be a genuine TSUBA which was silver coated in the recent past to match the other parts of the mounting. That may indeed be the work of an amateur as Brian suggested. Except for precious metals, all other metals usually were patinated. Silver can appear as bright metal if the design required it, e.g. to represent the moon. 

The lacquer work cannot be judged by photos, I am afraid. Modern SAYA usually have printed on decoration which looks very even in magnification. Traditional lacquerwork looks different. As Stephen suggested, a look into the KOI-GUCHI might reveal more (to an expert who can compare). 

I like the shape of the blade very much, so I hope for you that it is the real deal!

I should say that the criticism vs. your KOSHIRAE is just a 'technical' or artistic one, and you should not feel bad about us pointing out weak features of it. This should not keep you from liking it, but as most of us, you will be in a learning process which will change your view the more you see and compare.

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In the old days in SA, Gus was "the" go-to guy for Japaneses swords. Had a fantastic collection of all edged weapons, and lots of Japanese swords. Did amateur restoration before we all learned better.
I'd say a ton of SA-found swords went trough his hands. He passed away. Was an amazing guy who shared freely.
Adrian is a young collector who has an amazing collection but moved over more to armour. Also does some restoration, but mainly for himself.

Anyways, glad the blade is real and antique. I do think the rest of it was put together, but that's not a train smash. As long as the blade is ok.

Brian

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Stephen and Jean, thank you for your straightforward evaluation on all points; I would not have wanted it differently. I have gratefully taken note of all you have said and will consider all. I plan to show a pic of the koiguchi here, as soon as I get to it. Very interesting indeed is the information I got from the previous owner via the friend who helped negotiate the deal for me. Seems the owner had decided some time ago that the sloppy ito needed to be replaced. Some person did the rewrapping, and lucky for me he returned the old binding to the owner, as well as a bundle of stiff, thin paper strips. All this was given to me. The ito scraps seem under close inspection to be leather, coloured black on the outside. They look very old. I separated the many thin paper strips down to individual papers and found that some 18 of them actually has Japanese kanji or drawings on them. Please see the pic which I will post. So I am assailed by the notion that at least the tsuka plus same plus ito (before rewrapping) had been with the blade from the beginning, as well as the paper strips, which clearly had been between the ito and the same, because they were embossed by the knobbly same texture.  

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The paper triangles are folded from scrap paper and used under the wrapping for the correct shape and technique. You could have anything there from a shopping list to pages from an old book :)
The wrap and ito are likely old. Can't say "from the beginning" as fittings were regularly changed, but yes...they will have been from the old koshirae.
 

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If you can allow me to be mischievous for a moment; I would like to think that those little papers were scraps taken from something the smith himself perhaps had written. I even imagine that I see a face there, one in profile and one from the front (half a face)! There may have been a drawing or two on the paper. The other scribblings could be olden-day Japanese characters. Anyone recognize a kanji or two among them? Please share with me! Johan

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Jean and Stephen and others, you have kindly advised that I add a pic of the saya throat. Please see below. I'd also like to put a pic or two of two utility knives I have. They seem of real interest. Any comment will be greatly appreciated.  Johansamswaardthroat.thumb.jpg.e9f4eedc453e77f273017eacc7cd8f88.jpg  

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