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Identifying a mumei katana


JH Lee

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It's the first sword on this page: http://ipolishswords.com/beforeandafter.html

 

What are the things a total beginner like me should look for/notice in a mumei nihonto like this one, if trying to figure out its origins (era/age, probable school/-den, possible maker, etc.)? 

 

Thank you!  It's pretty overwhelming the amount of things I don't know in the study of Japanese swords....

 

 

mumei.jpg

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John, have you already mastered the terminology of the blade? If you have, then I suggest digging into Markus Sesko's https://markussesko.com/2015/02/06/kantei-introduction/

 

He has done a great job of covering the details of kantei, & there really is a scientific way of evaluating & understanding blades.

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Hi John,

As Ken says Markus Sesko has done a great job of examining the various factors relating to kantei. I'd start off by trying to get down some of the things that help identify a blade's age, particularly sugata. There's a kantei worksheet available in the info section on here that might help direct your thinking generally: http://www.militaria.co.za/articles/Kantei_Sheet.pdf

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I will definitely read these this weekend!  Thank you so much for the helpful links.

 

Any guesses about the sword in the pictures above?  When do you think it was made and by whom, etc?  It would help me to hear the opinions of more seasoned collectors so that I don't miss the mark too wildly.  Thank you!

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I’m guessing shin shinto copy of a nambokucho bizen blade but could be Keicho Shinto. The blade is in the style of a nambokucho blade with the O kissaki, and this style of blade went through a couple of revivals, in Keicho (around 1600) and later on in the shin Shinto period. 
 

I don’t think it’s original (nambokucho) as it’s ubu, and the tang patina is quite light. There is a hakikakke boshi but I would expect the hamon in the boshi to switch to suguba in a Shinto blade so that’s why I’m going shin shinto.

 

There will be occasional exceptions to these rules, but that’s my reasoning. Can’t be more precise than that given my level of knowledge and that the blade is unsigned. 🤣
 

Hope that helps, feel free to disagree if you spot something I’ve missed (or you get a better opinion). 😬

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To my inexperienced eyes, I didn't even see this as an o-kissaki...  I thought this was a slightly longer chu-kissaki.  Is it because of the geometry of the ko-shinogi that this is an o-kissaki?  Or is it a matter of ratio (e.g. yokote : length of the kissaki being at least 1 : 2+, etc)?

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Anyone else with thoughts about this sword and its origins?  I'm just interested to hear the thinking process, how and why you're applying certain specific criteria and knowledge in your assessment.  I figured it's probably the best way for me to learn (through such examples), rather than flailing wildly in a sea of information and getting things completely wrong without improvement.  

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9 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

A bit of a fools errand without better pictures I'm afraid.

 

I chose this picture from the internet bc I thought it was a good candidate.  It shows close up and overall picture of a blade in fresh new polish (you can zoom in if you click on the image).  The kesho/hadori is not overdone or so thick as to obscure the details of the hamon.  So, I figured pictures of this mumei sword would allow the more experienced collectors here to make good assessments.   What would need to be more visible?

 

[Edit] Actually, now that I'm looking at the zoomed image, the hada is not clearly visible.  The image is not high resolution enough and not the right lighting for that.  But do the sugata, shape of nakago, and style of hamon reveal anything?

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2 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

We can't see the Sugata properly, we can't see the Nakago properly, or the Hada. We are not magicians :rotfl:

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to chalk this one up to my not quite knowing what to look for yet.  Wish there were other photos of this sword but these were the only ones on the site.  Oh well!

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John, looking at only a part of a sword is similar to the parable of the blind men & an elephant. The first thing about kantei is having the entire blade to examine, otherwise, it's a waste of time. Seriously.

 

Like Chris, I'm not a fan of Hofhine's polishing skills.

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13 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

John, looking at only a part of a sword is similar to the parable of the blind men & an elephant. The first thing about kantei is having the entire blade to examine, otherwise, it's a waste of time. Seriously.

 

Like Chris, I'm not a fan of Hofhine's polishing skills.

 

I thought that the entire blade was visible in the bottom-most picture.  Perhaps it was not high resolution enough.

 

What do you see that is less than ideal about the new polish above?  To my eyes, I thought everything looked a lot more crisp and attractive after the new polish, and more details of the hamon was also revealed.  Maybe a higher resolution photo under different lighting would have shown the hada better as well....

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John, the purpose of the togishi is NOT to make "everything look more crisp & attractive." His job is to restore the blade to as close to the tosho's original intent as possible, while removing the absolute minimum amount of metal. That means he must understand how the blade was made, which period it came from, & what the swordsmith intended. That isn't an easy task, & requires a huge amount of knowledge.

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5 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

John, the purpose of the togishi is NOT to make "everything look more crisp & attractive." His job is to restore the blade to as close to the tosho's original intent as possible, while removing the absolute minimum amount of metal. That means he must understand how the blade was made, which period it came from, & what the swordsmith intended. That isn't an easy task, & requires a huge amount of knowledge.

 

 

This^   This is also why one should pay the going rate for a good togishi and avoid the 'discount' wannabes as they lack the knowledge, skill, or steady hand. Sometimes all three!

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Ok, fair enough.  I am in total agreement with both Ken and Chris about how the togishi should not remove any more metal than is necessary and only attempt restoration work with sufficient knowledge, training, skill, etc.  Beyond that, I do not know enough to agree or disagree about David Hofhine's abilities, except to say that the photos on his site look pretty amazing to me personally (and apparently, to numerous other clients,as well).  As for the particular sword in these photos, it would seem that he just re-finished the surface appearance without altering the actual shape/geometry.  And while all polishing removes some material regardless, I would assume that whatever amount is removed by fingerstones is probably only measurable in microns, if that.

 

Anyway, not what this thread was about.  Since I seem to have chosen photos not high-resolution enough for an interesting and informative conversation about kantei, I will keep googling and try to chip away at the helpful resources like the Markus Sesko link.  Thanks for your input.

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These sorts of threads are endlessly circular discourses!  John, you really have to get away from google and actually hold swords in your hand.  Find a sword club, or two, or three near you and get hands on experience.  Spend more time looking at swords before even thinking about buying a sword, even years.  The inevitability of sword collecting is after you gain more knowledge and appreciation you will say "Why did I ever think that was a good sword to buy!!"  The other thing is to get away from the idea that swords are an "investment".  Wrong mindset IMHO.  Oh, and never spend money that you can't afford to lose outright is a good guide to buying...

 

BaZZa.

(Still "at it" after 55 years...)

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Good advice.  However, it is not feasible for me to join a nihonto club (nearest one to me is a 2.5 hr drive; yes, I already looked), especially with a full work schedule and a toddler.  Best I can manage at the moment is the occasional forum and google browsing during breaks.  I'm not planning on any major purchases at the moment.  Though, if I had the funds to spare, I would gladly jump on that mantetsu in the for sale section.

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