Correction to Gregory and Fuller - 'Sumaran' sword

[kyushukairu]

Last night, a gunto was posted on the Facebook page 'Military Swords of Imperial Japan' with a mei written *almost* entirely in katakana. I read the mei as 'Jawatō Sumaran' (ジャワ刀　スマラン), which can be read to infer that this sword was made in Java, Semarang.

Another user posted a reference from Fuller and Gregory (attached below), where a similar mei is translated as ’Shiyawaka Sumara' (シヤワカ スマラン). However, I believe this to be a mistake, and the example in Fuller and Gregory should also read 'Jawatō' (ジャワ刀), rather than ’Shiyawaka' (シヤワカ).

Firstly, the image in F&G isn’t very clear (and perhaps also the mei), so it is not unreasonable to read shi (シ) instead of ji (ジ). Also for someone unfamiliar with the nuances of Japanese they may not know that Shi (シ) with a small ya (ャ) makes Sha (シャ), rather than Shiya (シヤ). The katakana character for 'ka' (カ) is also quite similar to the word for sword (刀), so it is not unreasonable to confuse these when the preceding characters are written in katakana. I have attached another example of this mei to support my reading, (from https://www.warrelics.eu) where the ジャ and 刀 are both very clear.

I also checked google maps and was unable to find any such place as Shiyawaka - so I think F&G may have just inferred there was such a place based of the reading of Sumara (スマラン), and the knowledge that this was in central Java.
 

[Bruce Pennington]

That real example definitely reinforces this issue!  It's truly amazing what Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory achieved before the advent of the internet and forums like these.  As soon as any book is published, there is already an errata sheet building full of corrections the authors could make.

 

There is a similar sword ON THIS THREAD.

[Bugyotsuji]

Surely yes, Kyle, that says ジャワ刀

Jawa-tō

(Java blade.)

 

And I saw on the news yesterday about a volcano erupting in Indonesia where the J news reported the name as Mt. スメル where the English is Mt. Semeru. (Not ‘Su’, indicating the Japanese may hear the silent ‘e’ differently.)

https://www.afpbb.com/articles/-/3319410?act=all

[kyushukairu]

Bruce, considering  Military Swords of Japan, 1868-1945 was first published 34 years ago, it was groundbreaking at the time. I'm sure there were only a handful of people living in the UK who could read Japanese, and whom the authors would have been able to readily contact.

That's the nature of academia though, ideas are constantly being challenged and reformulated. Nevertheless, Fuller and Gregory certainly provided the foundation for all knowledge of Japanese military swords in English language scholarship

 

 

 

[kyushukairu]

Piers, thanks for the link. That's interesting. I've never heard of anyone translating ス as 'se' before. I wonder if it was a typo?

Ps. I see you are also in Japan, where are you located?　　　

[Bugyotsuji]

Kyle, I am just saying that where the Japanese says Su ス, in both your sword Nakago and in the Volcano article, for a word using Se in English, it could well be the way the Japanese heard the place name in Indonesian. (As we say 'the book' with a schwa neutral 'e'). Possibly there's no big difference in the sounds Se and Su in Indonesian? Anyone? Not having heard native Javan, I cannot say! 😅

 

Oh, I am way down the main banana to the west, Kyle, in the Chugoku district. Rarely get up to Tokyo nowadays.

[Matt D]

Bruce mentioned an errata sheet for the Gregory and Fuller book.  Does anyone have a link to that errata sheet or an article that lists the errors in that book?

[Bruce Pennington]

I have a copy.  When I get home, I’ll post it.

[kyushukairu]

Piers, I tried to send you a PM, but it seems you are unable to receive messages - I'm not sure f you have that function disabled or if your mailbox is full.

Bruce, I would be interested to see that list too

[Bruce Pennington]

Here it is guys:

[Matt D]

Thank you Bruce!

[Matt D]

One thing that catches my eye is the Addendum on Blade Stamps.  Critical Amazon reviews of the book "Modern Japanese Swords: The beginning of the Gendaito era", co-written by Leon Kapp, take issue with the authors' assertions that star stamped blades are all non-traditional.  One critic claims that several star stamped blades have passed NBTHK shinsa.

 

Does anyone have an opinion or other information on Mr. Kapp's statements about star stamped blades?

 

 

[Mark C]

Thanks Bruce,

 

Was this an extra sheet that came with the book?

 

All the best

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

One thing that catches my eye is the Addendum on Blade Stamps.  Critical Amazon reviews of the book "Modern Japanese Swords: The beginning of the Gendaito era", co-written by Leon Kapp, take issue with the authors' assertions that star stamped blades are all non-traditional.  One critic claims that several star stamped blades have passed NBTHK shinsa.

 

Does anyone have an opinion or other information on Mr. Kapp's statements about star stamped blades?

He was wrong. Easily proven by the discovery of the RJT documents that are in our downloads section. They are 100% Gendaito. But he didn't have access to the resources we have nowadays and can be forgiven for not knowing what we now know.
Info is constantly being updated.

[Ganko]

As Brian has said, there is no question about the star stamped blades. They are 100% gendaito made from tamahagane that was provided to the RJT smiths.  Most of them signed with their normal signature and many were top rated smiths such as Sadakatsu, and Akihira(Shohei). Some signed with a pseudo name like Shibata Ka who used Mitsuoki as his RJT signature.

[Bugyotsuji]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:14 AM, kyushukairu said:

Piers, I tried to send you a PM, but it seems you are unable to receive messages - I'm not sure f you have that function disabled or if your mailbox is full.

 

Kyle, I was surprised to see this, apologies, and checked my inbox where I do indeed get a warning message to delete some messages. Accordingly I eventually worked out how to delete some, but when I tried to contact you again, I got the the same Warning that my inbox was full and to empty some messages first! :nuts:

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, Mark C said:

Thanks Bruce,

 

Was this an extra sheet that came with the book?

 

All the best

Mark,

 

I had contacted Richard Fuller for permission to use his charts about stamps for my stamps document, and he sent me the Errata sheet at that time.

[Brian]

Piers, that's where the Gold membership comes in handy  
It grants a few hundred more pm's along with other advantages. As a thanks for all you do for us, I have given you a 6 month membership...so your pm issues should be solved.

[Bugyotsuji]

Brian, may I first thank you in public for this generous gesture. Much appreciated.  Hoping that I can repay in some way.

 

In private I shall have a look at this 'Gold membership' thingy. 🕵️‍♂️

[kyushukairu]

10 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Kyle, I was surprised to see this, apologies, and checked my inbox where I do indeed get a warning message to delete some messages. Accordingly I eventually worked out how to delete some, but when I tried to contact you again, I got the the same Warning that my inbox was full and to empty some messages first! :nuts:

Obviously in hot demand, Piers 😆