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Mei (gimei) curiosities - new member, new acquisitions


Yama Arashi

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Hello,

I am a newly registered member here, although I have browsed for a couple of years, gleaning valuable information thanks to many outstanding members.

I have been studying swordsmanship since 1995, and have been fortunate to have handled many amazing swords, including the opportunity to perform tameshigiri with katana and wakizashi from the likes of Yasuhiro Kobayashi - although, I have never actually owned an authentically made Japanese katana prior to last month. I am excited to show my first/recent acquisitions, along with the following reservations.

I have read and researched many forum offerings in regard to gimei swords, and the general attitude toward them, as well as toward "green papers", and of course rightly so.

My question is mainly in regard to the following sword, which I acquired recently, knowing full well it is probably (definitely?) gimei - and of course even more questionable when the signature is of a highly valued smith. Although it was sold by a reputable shop, it was not presented as outright gimei, though was plainly stated that the signature posed doubts/questions, and was being sold as "not guaranteed", yet still a fantastic work. ("Jyo-Jyo Saku/jounin piece", excellent polish) Also highlighted by the fact that the price was nowhere near what a papered example would be.

There are always many questions as to why a sword may not have any sort of paper trail, but I am more curious as to the general attitudes toward gimei swords from experienced collectors. Are they generally just tossed aside as junk in a sense, or is it possible to have a quality/fantastic blade, albeit gimei?

I of course do not intend any disrespect posing this question, but "expert guesswork" in some sense makes me curious to certain caveats, as I've heard of green papers being trashed, signatures being removed, possible mis-attributions to certain smiths, and so on.

Please view this particular sword in question;  Do very high quality examples of gimei swords exist, or are they usually discounted as junk because they are considered gimei, have not passed shina, or have not even been submitted to shinsa?

I have also acquired a shinsakuto/daisho set that I am very happy about, by Iyo Matsuyama Ju Seiken (1988) but I have not been able to find very much information about this particular smith, save a couple sold examples from recent years, and being listed as a gendai NBTHK/NTHK papered swordsmith.

Thank you kindly for your opinions/views.

Signature as Minamoto Masao Saku
Ansei 5 Nen 6 Gatsu Hi

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Iyo Matsuyama Ju Seiken
2010-1158ha_big1.jpg

2010-1158ha_big2.jpg

2010-1158kantei_big.jpg

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Hi Ryo,

 

And welcome to NMB. Those are nice swords! Congrats!

 

As for your question, I think you will have many different opinions according to the collector's tastes, knowledge and finances.

 

A wealthy, very knowledgeable, refined collector who sees swords as an investment will tell you "never buy Gimei swords".

 

Unfortunately, I belong to the collector’s class with bad tastes, little knowledge and poor. So I don’t care whether a sword is Gimei, suriage or mumei. I get what I can and what I like. The saying "buy the sword, not the name" was probably coined for the likes of me! :)

 

Some will tell you to have the name erased, presented to Shinsa to get an attribution and thus turn it into a good investment.

 

But as a guy who thinks value and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder, and as a lover of history, for me, that’s an heresy. It means erasing a part of that sword's history.

 

So I guess you have to find the kind of collector you are. :)

 

Whatever, welcome again! 
 

JP

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I think JP is bang on. 

Remember in Japanese culture giving gifts is integral and some might find a certain smiths swords as lucky or offer long life etc so to gift a sword by this smith (who we will  call Nagamitsu for this explanation ) was considered a truly great present. 

Now if this nagamitsu smith only made 50 swords then some might be damaged beyond repair, lost of just polished away. So when you only have a few swords in existence in the world and these are already gifted to someone, how then will you gift a Nagamitsu sword to all your other worthy friends? Well, you get another smith to aquire or make quality swords and then get him to sign them as made by the lucky Nagamitsu smith. 

So even gimei may very well be a sword made by a very good smith then signed at the request of the client. 

You don't argue with powerful clients. 

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I don't think there has ever been a "gimei swords are junk" attitude here, or with most collectors.
Shinsa will fail them yes. And very high end collectors will avoid them. But in general, buy the work and not the name. Plenty of very good swords with gimei signatures.
Nothing wrong with gimei unless you are a person who needs papers for all their swords.

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As long as everyone (dealer & buyer) is fully aware a sword is Gimei then there isn't too much of an issue if the buyer likes the sword. The trouble begins once any ambiguity from a dealer comes into play, or even vice versa where the buyer purchases a known Gimei from one market (Japan) and then tries to flog it to another (western) as genuine. You would have a Gimei removed if you wanted to submit to Shinsa.

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Thank you for the replies.

And to clarify @Brian - I don't think I've noticed that attitude here as far as I recall, but most of my conversation about it to this point has been online elsewhere, and it seemed to have received more of an 'upturned nose' attitude as it were.

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Brian, I’m not necessarily talking about this site in particular. For example I remember an article by Jim Kurrash where he advised it was better to buy a mumei sword than a Gimei one. And John is right. There isn’t any issue in buying a Gimei sword, so long as buyer and seller play it fair.

 

I own a Shodai Sukehiro. Possibly (likely?) Gimei. Well it is still one of the best looking sword in my meager collection, so you won’t ever find me criticizing Gimei, mumei or Suriage. :)

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3 hours ago, 16k said:

Brian, I’m not necessarily talking about this site in particular. For example I remember an article by Jim Kurrash where he advised it was better to buy a mumei sword than a Gimei one. And John is right. There isn’t any issue in buying a Gimei sword, so long as buyer and seller play it fair.

 

I own a Shodai Sukehiro. Possibly (likely?) Gimei. Well it is still one of the best looking sword in my meager collection, so you won’t ever find me criticizing Gimei, mumei or Suriage. :)

 

I'll always remember an older gentleman at the table just outside the entry door to the San Francisco sword show. I was holding a wakizashi I had brought to the show as there was a Shinsa  team visiting that year. The older gentleman questioned me about the sword and I rather apologetically said " it's only a mumei wakizashi."

 

He smiled and replied " ahh yes, maybe mumei, but much better than Gimei ! "

 

Dave M.

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I am not a specialist on shinshinto signatures in the slightest, but the work is essentially one of the two most common (and the most common among the two) types associated with Kyomaro's school - Bizen choji in nie with extreme sunagashi.

Attached is Saneo. These are attractive and easy to appreciate blades, and there is always a market for this school.

This being said, there is an order+ price difference between Kiyomaro signed ubu and Saneo, Masao, Kiyondo...

 

Kirill R.

terterre.jpg

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8 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Buy the sword not the papers, but if you pay a gimei the same price than a shoshin sword, i don't think you make a bargain.  

To that, we agree 100%. A sword without papers, suriage should never command the price of a papered, ubu example. However, it can be a way to get great swords at a reasonable price.

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