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AntiquarianCat

The Return of the Revenge of The Changtian Sword

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These are pretty evil fakes, the proportions aren’t horrible, the Kissaki even looks okay, although the boshi seems off. The way the light glows in photo one even makes it look like it has a weak nioiguchi so if you’re sleepy at first it doesn’t trigger the reptile brain for fake. It’s only after you get to the third photo and see that hideous Damascus pattern that many fakes have that the base part of my brain starts snarling. This one is even more convincing in low res photos except it looks off, doesn’t really have a nioiguchi (pretty sure that Hamon is an acid wash), or nie, and the Nagako is a mess. It’s marked as an antique and I’m sure someone bought it thinking it was a Nihonto.

 

I wouldn’t have brought this up except it’s filed as “antique Japanese” From the looks of things dozens of inexperienced collectors have bought these swords thinking they have an old masterpiece. I wonder if this could be Changtian swords and if anything can be done since I’d rather new people not be put off from this hobby due to a flood of improved fakes.

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Also something else I’ve found disturbing is that many eBay sellers, even some with good reputations, will try to pass off fakes and problem swords onto people they deem “suckers”. Case in point an American eBay vendor who is well regarded, isn’t Komonjo or Showa22 and is a bigger seller than either contacted me when I was even more ignorant than I am now and tried to sell me this mess as some legendary Gendai work.

 

Apologies I didn’t save high resolution photos but even these should show enough. Maybe it was a super shoddy showato that took a very long acid bath? Or possibly just a fake. Anyways the lack of any habuchi and the fact the Nagako is a mess made me not bite but had it been a Komonjo I probably would have been suckered into biting, thinking it was gendai.

 

It’s honestly a miracle that I wasn’t had by a fake when I was more ignorant. I wonder if it’s possible to do things about the eBay sellers selling fakes (I never found an option to report) or barring that for the more experienced collectors to put together a guide on warning signs since they’ve gotten much better at fakes than the stuff listed in old guides like jssus.

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That second blade looks fake, but I agree that the first one could pass most of my filters. The nakago is strange, mostly because it shows zero age. At least he marks them as Japanese Style Samurai Swords.

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That's true, although I feel that's just an asterisk so customers can't get their money back. Also if these swords are being produced in large amounts then I'm sure they are ending up in the market elsewhere, probably even more brazenly passed off as the real deal.

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No argument, Juan. But remember that eBay is a jungle, & ignorant buyers get what they pay for. I'd hate to see a newbie get burned, but if it forces him to find NMB, then maybe that's a cheap lesson.

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Yeah, ebay can be a minefield...only helpful thing is there aren't many sellers specializing in antique Japanese swords and after some observations over time you'll learn their names and their games.  Some of the "legit" mid-tier sellers come with their own mid-tier problems for buyers and use multiple selling accounts such as Showa22.   If you complain to him for receiving something not as described you may be banned from future bidding but at least does offer returns (I do think he reads these forums as well and may spite ban if you mention negative things.)  I know from experience.   The low/mid-tier sellers on average that many new buyers would go to come with risks/hurdles and there aren't many options out there.  It's a hard world out there for new sword buyers sub 2k and they are more likely to gamble to get something they can afford.

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I think i have seen this sword in an offer. Its obvious fake yes.

 

But Juan, your links show Japanese styled samurai sword. The seller did not wrote authentic antique Japanese sword or something like that. The sword looks very good for a replic.

 

Just my two cents.

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On 9/25/2020 at 6:27 PM, AntiquarianCat said:

Also something else I’ve found disturbing is that many eBay sellers, even some with good reputations, will try to pass off fakes and problem swords onto people they deem “suckers”. Case in point an American eBay vendor who is well regarded, isn’t Komonjo or Showa22 and is a bigger seller than either contacted me when I was even more ignorant than I am now and tried to sell me this mess as some legendary Gendai work.

 

Apologies I didn’t save high resolution photos but even these should show enough. Maybe it was a super shoddy showato that took a very long acid bath? Or possibly just a fake. Anyways the lack of any habuchi and the fact the Nagako is a mess made me not bite but had it been a Komonjo I probably would have been suckered into biting, thinking it was gendai.

 

It’s honestly a miracle that I wasn’t had by a fake when I was more ignorant. I wonder if it’s possible to do things about the eBay sellers selling fakes (I never found an option to report) or barring that for the more experienced collectors to put together a guide on warning signs since they’ve gotten much better at fakes than the stuff listed in old guides like jssus.

00B07224-09E9-4E48-A118-511394506536.jpeg

46EFE882-9FBD-46AA-97A9-E81AB524E051.jpeg

05BE054A-F7BB-49F3-A837-9A693F2B592F.jpeg

5E7F72F1-96B8-4C54-91C4-47BAF309B08F.jpeg

44A47F9B-3390-4AF7-885D-D1E39BE52C58.jpeg

 

As someone new to nihonto collecting, this has really bothered me. Even before I discovered nmb, I was suspicious of some dealers with brand new looking blades, but often they also sell what seem to be a mix of genuine swords as well, particularly komonjo. The new swords without habaki from komonjo are definitely sketchy, but some of their listings seem pretty convincing to me. I read on here some of their blades have even papered, but most are gimei. I don't know enough to be comfortable bidding on anything from these eBay dealers, regardless. 

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@vajoYes that’s true although he’s placed his swords in the antique Japanese non replica category so it’s still misleading even if it’s in a grey area. I brought him up because it looks like Changtian are reaching eBay again.

Honestly, It’s the case from post #2 which bothers me more since it was an American eBay vendor with a top reputation trying to convince new people that a mess with Damascus “Hada” and no nioiguchi was in fact a very highly rated gedaito and that people should send him thousands for that mess. I think someone else did buy it for thousands. I’m pretty sure this was  blatant misrepresentation to push a bad sword onto a buyer. He said it was a “kihin no retsu” tier sword and basically said I’m an expert trust me.

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I guess I posted both because I want new people who might just be lurking at this point to see two common threats on eBay: well made fakes and well regarded sellers leveraging their reputation to unload problem merchandise on people.

@0Takeda0 I never bought/interacted with Komonjo so it doesn’t feel right commenting. That said the sword and knife guy hawking that “rare and amazing” Gendaito from above sold legit cheaper gunto and avoided losses by pushing costly fakes onto “suckers” so that sounds spot on for what you said about vendors spiking mostly genuine, often cheaper stuff with horrifically expensive fakes. That sounds somewhat like the market for ancient coins. 

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On 9/26/2020 at 2:40 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

No argument, Juan. But remember that eBay is a jungle, & ignorant buyers get what they pay for. I'd hate to see a newbie get burned, but if it forces him to find NMB, then maybe that's a cheap lesson.

Ken is that because you consider this forum to be without its own dodgy sellers and spurious attributions or descriptions?

Because at least on eBay you can get your money back if the deal is a bad one but you won't on here and more and more new sellers appear almost weekly.

The forums own rules protect these people and I've had more comments deleted than I can remember that would have at least got people thinking .

 

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The seller of this sword is a longtime member and seller, I have dealt with him a few times and trust him so to see this sword is a little disappointing. I would like to see an explanation from him about it as he genuinely has sold hundreds of top quality Gunto and Nihonto over the years.

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