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Strange menuki theme.

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Could anyone please enlighten me as to this theme for menuki?

Thank you Adam

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The top pic reminds me of a Chinese scholars scepter.  Ruyi.

Rich

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Yes a Ruyi, a septre used by Chinese scholars, I have seen a few on Japanese action sites, they appear on tsuba rarely as well. The tsuba pictured is found in the Metropolitan Museum number 29.100.989File:Official's Scepter (Ruyi) with Deer, Cranes, and a Bat LACMA  M.83.89.jpg - Wikimedia Commonsimage.thumb.png.20681ee55444b574fdf4fc78893c11a0.png

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Dale,
What incredible workmanship on that museum piece :o

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My guess is that it is supposed to be a pair of buddhist implements: Nyōi and hossu. Nyōi is the Ruyi that is mentioned above (same thing, but Japanese word vs. Chinese word). Hossu is like a brush. They are some of the implements used in Japanese buddhism. Here is another set. The brush on the set in this thread doesn't look very much like a brush, but given the context... I don't know what else it would be. 

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/af15205-目貫:短冊銘-土屋-menuki-tanzaku-signature-tsuchiya

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossu

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The other menuki looks like a flower - they may not be a matched set.  Can we see the backs?

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Dear All.

 

Surely the gold tuft of hair on the sceptre is simply the tasselled cord through the handle, just like the cords on a sword bag.

 

All the best.

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I notice there is a shadow in the fabric under the gold flower that doesn't match the present menuki and the colour of the gold looks different to that on the Ruyi so my guess is they are a mismatch pair.

 

Steve I think the description by aoijapan is accurate but 'brush' is certainly not right and a hossu is more of a whisk. The translation I see as Nyo /Nyoi should read as Ruyi

[ Probably a Google Translate mistake]

 

Brian I am amazed how good the work on that guard is, from the hairs in his beard to the wrinkles on his face. It is a pity the " Lady/goddess? "  face is a little rubbed or oxidized on the ura.

Does anyone think the design is reminiscent of an Egyptian Pharaoh?

 

 

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Dale, good point about the gold flower not matching the box impression and not matching the color of the gold on the other menuki.  In addition, the two menuki are significantly different in size.  All of those factors point to these not being a set, but if we can see the backs, we will probably know for sure.

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The backs 

for the record the golds are identical in tone and colour, the chisel work is also identical on the strands if hair and the hair in the sceptre . If your seeing different it's either lighting or imagination.

The backs also look the same workmanship and both came off the same tsuka that I removed old Ito from and was bought primarily for the Fuchigashira.

However the power of suggestion is clearly at play here.

 

Can we just confirm that in your opinion all menuki have to be exactly the same size? Only I've a great many that contradicts your assumption.

Thank you

1662638808_IMG_20200914_1114135322.thumb.jpg.83d4a6dd3ef32f4a89be1e2e8e927b6b.jpg

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Apologies, it is the lighting - has the box been used for another set of menuki?  I have seen many menuki pairs that are not the same size. Even those depicting the same object.

image.png.7a5504dd2c2d0fdd4b2d1d2623459ead.pngimage.png.05d152302e094ded7e8529096c239ce2.png

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Yes I try to find old tosogu boxes the rich wood colours appeal to me more and I think they are often better made.New boxes are so white.

I like those eel menuki ,they are full of movement. Very well rendered.  

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Ahhh, unagi, also very delicious to eat...

 

BaZZa.

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I wouldn't say that menuki have to be the same size, but judging whether menuki are a set or not should be based on many different factors.  Being of significantly different size can be one factor to consider.  For your menuki, the "pros" are that they have a complementary shape and you got them off the same tsuka.  The "cons" are different base metals, different size, apparent motif mismatch, back filing differences, gold uttori differences and other construction differences.   Most notably, the gold Uttori (gold foil overlay) appears to be very differently applied from one menuki to the other (see photos below) and the base metal appears to be a different alloy.   All those "cons" would point to a mismatched set, and if the set is mismatched, you may not be able to find a "theme".

 

 

Menuki 2.jpg

Menuki 1.jpg

Base Alloy.jpg

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Thanks George your zooming in on an area of damage not present on the other menuki.

The foil in that area is a little stressed.

I have to say I'm amazed at your ability to tell the base metals are different from those images but there you go.

Did you know that if you look over your comments in all posts I started and that you felt the urge to respond to, you are only responding to throw doubt on my items or criticise in some negative way.

 

Do me a favour and when you see my name on a new post please resist the urge to comment.

This way I won't start building an impression, either true or false ,that your out to discredit everything that I might say.

Thank you Adam

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Adam, not trying to discredit you or your items.  You asked a question about theme.  I am responding that there may not be a theme because these menuki are likely mismatched.  You then specifically asked me to respond about menuki sizes and I did explaining how that might indicate a mismatch and therefore no theme.  I only focused in on that area because it is easier to see the thickness of the Uttori (gold foil) not because of any damage.  See the photo below - you can see it all around one of your menuki.  I was focusing on that thickness because it is not present on the other menuki showing that different materials and techniques were used (again pointing to a mismatch).

 

You like to ask questions but when you get answers you don't like you attack the person supplying answers.  Of the three potentially mismatched sets that you have shown on NMB, I helped you establish that one was actually a match (helping you) and believe the other two to be a mismatch.  You mentioned to me that you have a very large collection and you yourself may be responsible for some of the mismatches.  From your other posts, you do seem willing to mix and match things.

 

 

Uttori.jpg

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As I've already said with all due respect please refrain from commenting on my posts. 

Thank you Adam 

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Adam, I've been here far longer than you and I have been a helpful member of this community.  I have every right to voice my opinion, so if you do not want me to comment on your things, then don't post here.

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George, if I have politely asked you to avoid comments on my posts so regardless of how long you have been here I would expect you to honour and respect my wishes. 

Kindly do so. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Babu said:

George, if I have politely asked you to avoid comments on my posts so regardless of how long you have been here I would expect you to honour and respect my wishes. 

Kindly do so. 

 

Adam if you do not want to receive comments to your post do not post. 

If you post any member of NMB is entitled to give his opinion on the topic, regardless of the fact that you like it or not. 

From your profile it seem that you joined NMB about three months ago, since then your posts have become increasingly intolerant of criticism on what you post. 

If you cannot withstand negative opinions, or opinions diverging from yours you are on the wrong blog. 

Personally I am here to learn from more experienced collectors. If this involves being corrected, even in harsh terms, fine, I have shoulders strong enough to bear it. 

I prefer onest opinions to flattery. 

 

Luca

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Luca with all due respect I fail to see what this has got to do with you.

I have asked George not to comment on my posts because he's not trying to help he is constantly trying to discredit whatever i say.

I do have a right to be here, I've paid my money but if Brian wants to refund me my $60 I'll be gone in a flash because I'm getting sick if people telling me what I can and cannot do in here. Don't comment in so many posts ....,don't buy so much, people don't like it. What is this a dictatorship??

I do not want George commenting on my posts surely I have a right to request that he honours this I have been polite and asked respectfully?

Anyone else can say whatever they like but after getting a PM from him telling me what I can and cannot do on this forum I've had enough.

 

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Adam, this forum is not only for you, and information and responses in your threads are beneficial to all members.  Your threads do not belong to you - they belong to everyone.  You don't seem to understand that.  I post information for everyone's benefit - even if I am posting on your thread.  

 

As mentioned above, over the past two months, I posted about whether three of your items were sets.  In the first case, I actually proved for you that your fuchigashira were a matched set (even though you were not sure).  In the second case I did not believe that they were a set,  In that case, you argued and accused me just like you are doing here, but you eventually agreed that the second set of fuchigashira were not a matched set (and you listed them for sale/trade admitting they were not a matched set here on NMB).  In that second case before your admission, you kept refusing to post a picture of the kashira.  Who posts a picture of a fuchi on multiple occasions but does not include the kashira?  (I suspect that you knew that they were not really a matched set, so you didn't want to show them together).  With this third set (menuki), you kept refusing to post a picture of the backs of the menuki - why?  I suspect once again that you felt that they weren't a matched set but were preparing to sell them here (I've also noticed that you tend to ask questions about your items here and then later put them up for sale...) 

 

Finally, my PM to you of several weeks ago simply asked you to behave better on this forum because I believe that your behavior is ruining it for many of us.

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MODS please close this thread.

It is done.

As am I.

 

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Ah, the ruffling of feathers. Too loud and it will drown out your ability to learn.

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Mothers club meeting - my baby is not ugly but yours is!  [sorry for the sexist bit]

Please just get over it, opinions should always be welcome - you don't need to agree however. 

[getting shot down in flames makes me take a closer look the next time I comment, which is not a bad thing.]

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Note, for the record, I will NOT be refunding any members who choose to leave or are unhappy for any reason. I took a hit doing that for Rayhan, and will not be doing it again. Please take this as official policy.
We do our best here, and usually any actions taken are not just my own choice, but are representative of majority choice.
I'm not going to make a big deal of this. If anyone posts here, then anyone is entitled to respond. There is no such thing as banning someone from your threads. If someone is obviously biased, then I will take action and remove them from posting. That is not the case here.
We have a wonderful "ignore" function here in your profiles. You can add someone and not see their posts. If you don't get on with someone, use that.
Adam, your choice. You have some nice items to share, so would enjoy seeing them. But if people want to comment, that is the risk you take and is how we all learn.
Sometimes we learn the most from arguments. Ball is in your court. I mentioned many times less is more and it is time to back off just a little.

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