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Current requirements for NBTHK & NTHK shinsa submittal


Ken-Hawaii

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I've been advised to avoid submitting a blade to either NBTHK/NTHK shinsa unless it is in decent polish. Has this changed?

 

If the team can't see enough details to kantei, aren't we wasting our money? I keep reading posts recommending shinsa before polishing, & wonder if that's really bad advice.

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I don't have a definitive answer regarding NBTHK/NTHK protocols but I would have thought as long as the features required for kantei i.e jihada, hamon, boshi are visible then it should be adquate for shinsa, even if there are other areas that are rusted or out of polish

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Hi Ken,

I am not aware that the rules or requirements have changed, although in recent years the term "juyo polish" has appeared in the vocabulary with suggestions that for a sword to be considered for Juyo shinsa it requires to have a specific type/level of polish. I am not sure how true this is.

However as pointed out to make a reasonable judgement call you have to be able to see what's there. I remember hearing the late Yoshikawa sensei once tell someone that he believed a blade was by "X" but if it were freshly polished it may actually be by" Y". The better the polish and condition the better and likely more accurate the appraisal.

I think in the past it has generally been the case that blades were polished before submission rather than the other way round.

 

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Big difference between a blade that is out of polish but still shows hamon and some hada and hataraki....and one of those project blades where you cannot see anything.
If there is enough to make a judgement, they will. Most of us own swords that we would call not in full polish, but still show enough to enjoy and we don't want to remove metal just to bring out the full range of activity.
See Grey's answer about "should I have it polished" in the FAQ.
If it's a high level blade and you are expecting an important decision, then obviously having it in a decent polish is necessary.

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Ken, for years I have first submitted almost all blades that I was considering to send to Japan for polish, shirasaya, habaki, shinsa etc. to the NTHK-NPO in the US before sending to Japan, whether it was signed or not.

 

 They have been quite willing to give a ruling on blades and the vast majority have papered, while very few were in full polish.  When I got a gimei call, I either had the signature removed or sold the sword.  All of the ones that they papered also passed at the NBTHK.  

 

I have had some interesting experiences with differences of opinion on mumei swords though.  For instance, a blade that NTHK-NPO passed as Ko-mihara was papered to Sue Bizen (although in fairness, when it was polished, the tang was filed down due to the very high rust, and it may have changed the vibe of the sword).  Another one was papered by the NTHK-NPO to Motomitsu and was papered to Hokke by the NBTHK.  Another one was papered to Ko-Yoshii by the NTHK-NPO, and the (still unofficial) opinion that I have gotten after polish is Rai Kunitoshi.  On the other hand, there was another osuriage blade that both groups papered to Ishido Korekazu (much to my chagrin).  There was yet another that NTHK-NPO papered to Shimada and NBTHK papered to Shitahara.  Bottom line for me is that it has been very helpful for me as a filter to determine what I send to Japan and what I don't.  

 

Since I am in Chicago, submitting to the NTHK-NPO has been very simple since they come to the show regularly.  Since you are in Hawaii, it is not that more difficult for you to just send your blades to Japan.  I do know that many collectors will get an opinion on an out of polish (but visible) sword from Tanobe or the NBTHK before committing to a polish.

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I haven’t submitted many blades for shinsa so my experience is limited. I think the decision about submitting for shinsa before or after polish might need to consider how close of a call the evaluation might be. I think the shinsa judges are more likely to make an attribution to the lesser of two possibilities when the blade is not in polish. I have heard of instances when a blade was submitted out of polish and was given a call of”gimi.”  The signature was removed and the blade polished before resubmitting it. The next evaluation gave an attribution that matched the original signature. I don’t think there is much inclination for a shinsa team to stick their neck out on a blade out of polish. I also don’t believe all gimi calls are correct. The fact that different organizations can come to different conclusion sort of reinforces the fact that it’s just an opinion, although it’s certainly better than most of us will ever be capable of.  If you are new to this you should study what you have and get feedback from more knowledgeable people to decide which approach to take. I spent six years studying my first blade before I sent it for polish and then shinsa.

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5 hours ago, Surfson said:

I have had some interesting experiences with differences of opinion on mumei swords though.  For instance, a blade that NTHK-NPO passed as Ko-mihara was papered to Sue Bizen (although in fairness, when it was polished, the tang was filed down due to the very high rust, and it may have changed the vibe of the sword).  Another one was papered by the NTHK-NPO to Motomitsu and was papered to Hokke by the NBTHK.  Another one was papered to Ko-Yoshii by the NTHK-NPO, and the (still unofficial) opinion that I have gotten after polish is Rai Kunitoshi.  On the other hand, there was another osuriage blade that both groups papered to Ishido Korekazu (much to my chagrin).  There was yet another that NTHK-NPO papered to Shimada and NBTHK papered to Shitahara.  Bottom line for me is that it has been very helpful for me as a filter to determine what I send to Japan and what I don't.  

 

Since I am in Chicago, submitting to the NTHK-NPO has been very simple since they come to the show regularly.  Since you are in Hawaii, it is not that more difficult for you to just send your blades to Japan.  I do know that many collectors will get an opinion on an out of polish (but visible) sword from Tanobe or the NBTHK before committing to a polish.

 

These are intriguing mismatches. Not pretending to be an expert, but as personal point:

Ko-Mihara vs. Sue-Bizen I would check kissaki size and kasane vs. mihaba, as well as whether ha has distinctive masame (strong point for mihara) or more itame based with ashi (Sue-Bizen).

Motomitsu vs. Hokke - same point, is there masame in shinogi ji and ha? Yes tilts towards Hokke. 

Everything school from Kamakura period can be very close to one another. If the measurements are well within expected for mid-kamakura, then ko-Bizen vs. Aoe vs. Ayanokoji vs. even Rai can be a single feature-based distinction.

 

For the polish, unless its a very high level attribution if kantei features are visible, especially if signed, good to do.

 

Kirill R.

 

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I've personally been pretty lucky, with no mismatches, but I've also had my blades polished prior to submittal, & don't bother with ugly/unpolishable blades.

 

I'm kind of hoping for some "visual guidance" on where the crossover point is, not so much for myself, but for people just getting into collecting. Any of you skilled photographers want to take a shot at that? Start out with a perfectly-polished blade, & show less & less-perfect ones, with an indicator showing where submittal stops making sense.

 

Yeah, I know that's subjective, but we have a lot of experience in NMB.

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Ken, as you know, it's not uncommon for a person with a blade that is completely out of polish, with no visible hamon or hada (maybe a steel wool basket case), to have a window polished, perhaps including the kissaki and a section of the monouchi or near the hamachi, and then submit the blade.  I think that a shinsa team can appraise a blade as long as they can get an idea that it is healthy and see enough activity to assign it to a school.  I think the same applies to a blade that is out of polish but not so bad that it needs a window.  

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With signature the window is enough in 80% of cases. You get sugata, signature and example of what the work is.

Without signature, I still regularly see blades pretty close to zero polish (just visible contours of hamon) being papered. The papers will be to the average matching school from the period which matches sugata and hamon. You can get something like Yamato Tegai or Uda out of it. Not say sue-Sa.

 

Kirill R.

 

 

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