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I have seen online a number of games and competitions asking people to pick their world class fantasy football (Soccer for our U.S. Colleagues) teams. There has been a great deal of discussion recently about collecting, it is after all a major part of why we are here, but with too much time on my hands I thought I would take the fantasy concept onboard and try and pick my “Fantasy Nihon-To collection”. I know this has been done in various forms in the past but it might be worth re-visiting. If nothing else it might help you identify on what you really appreciate in a sword.

Below is mine and is selected mainly based on smiths who’s work I have been lucky enough to see in hand (most but not all). There are what might be considered some glaring omissions but this is not based on reputation of a smith, just on workmanship that really appeals to my own aesthetic.

1.       An Awataguchi daito preferably by Kunitomo, Hisakuni or Norikuni.

2.       A ko-Bizen daito preferably Tomonari

3.       A tanto by Shintogo Kunimitsu or Yukimitsu (early work style)

4.       An Aoe blade from mid to late Kamakura by Sadatsugu or Tsunetsugu

5.       A tanto by Rai Kunimitsu

6.       A Yamato daito by either a Taima smith or by Shodai Kanenaga(Tegai)

7.       A Bizen Osafune daito by Shodai Nagamitsu or Kagemitsu

8.       A daito by Shodai Yamato Shizu.

9.       An Osaka shinto daito by Inoue Shinkai

10.   A daito by Nanki Shigekuni

11.   A daito by Sa Yukihide

While in many ways it is a trivial exercise it might be worth doing, keeping the list and then re-doing a few years later just to see if and how your views evolve as you progress in to the subject.

 

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I think, since this is fantasy anyways, I would love ideally to have a full samurai figure in a glass case. This would be an early to mid Edo full armor complete with very good 32 or 64 plate kabuto, mempo etc. Complete and mounted.
This figure would be complete with a decent Kamakura period tachi in polish from any of the good schools, and a tanto from one of the Rai schools.
Then also displayed with a very good mounted naginata also polished and papered.
Not overly ambitious, I think some of our members would already have similar.

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I think it is fun idea. Here is a 9 item collection (excluding the possible koshirae from the count) I came up with. In perfect world all items would of course be ubu. I think excluding the ōdachi and ubu naginata, the rest can be achieved fairly easily, and I left out any makers in order to make the basic format easy to see. And I am not personally yet too drawn into any specific makers, as there are so many interesting smiths and schools throughout the history. I realized it easily shows my preference of item types over specific schools. However I must say in reality I would probably cut the Muromachi trio for another earlier item but I included them to this fantasy format as I thought 9 items like this would give a nice view into different item types as well.

 

Kamakura

1. Naginata

2. Tachi

3. Tantō

 

Nanbokuchō

1. Naginata

2. Ōdachi

3. Ko-wakizashi

 

Muromachi

1. Yari

2. Uchigatana (daishō koshirae)

3. Wakizashi (daishō koshirae)

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Zaimei Tomonari tachi

Zaimei Masatsune tachi

Zaimei one of Yoshifusa, Sukezane, Norifusa, Nobufusa tachi

Zaimei Saburo Kunimune tachi

Zaimei Mitsutada tachi

One of zaimei Nagamitsu, Kagemitsu, Kanemitsu tachi

One of a good Sanjo, Gojo or Awataguchi

One of Masamune, Sadamune, Go, top Norishige, top Yukimitsu

Zaimei Shintogo tanto

 

This is the dream. The reality is I shall probably end up with some mumei or fumei examples of some blades.....

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A year does not pass without a heated discussion about "the rules of collecting" and "what should or should not be owned". "What should I aspire to". Advises a-la "It is useful to think about it once a month".

30 pages pamphlets written on the subject. Buy a library, spend decades like me in "Studious Research, while cultivating the Inner Aesthetics of Samurai".

Authored with no exception by owners of about a dozen of "very beginner Juyo" and other budget-friendly blades.

 

So let us say someone with more money spends half an hour at sokendo, buys two good blades, making his a much better collection - should we still lynch him because he failed to follow some rules? Or frankly what was the great achievement which was supposed to come out from following the rules in the first place? Buying a Tokubetsu Hozon blade for 5,400 USD? Thank God, its a signed one?

The above mentioned list to me is a perfect example of the issue: what is the achievement in owning any of the objects on the list, aside spending x amount of dollars for a blade with a big name behind it? Where do the decades of learning and taste acquisition come in? The only thing missing is the money. Not even time - half things on the list can be acquired in a day.  What is this mish-mash of names supposed to illustrate? What in the hell does shodai Yamato Shizu even mean? The earlier work as opposed to later?

 

I am by far not a successful collector, frankly speaking just having fun. So its just a fun list, achieved and not:

 

a. Wanted an early continental chokuto tsuba. Accomplished at the price point of about 400$ - and came in iron rather than more common soft metal, and with a matching iron habaki decorated in the same manner.

b. Want chokuto with nakago tilting away from the edge - and signed. So far no luck, and unlikely to come true.

c. Studied a number of Tomonari, ko-Hoki and even Rai Kuniyuki that looked more Soshu than Yamato. All unsigned. I would really love to see wide and full of nie hamon with [Rai] Kuniyuki zaimei. Otherwise with all the strange sugatas of these names I am always second-guessing in the back of my mind - maybe this is just Japanese reverence for the first generations multiplied by some traditional attribution.

d. Owned at one point the gokaden assortment made by one and the same good shinshinto name. Bizen was unsigned, so I guess it "should not have been owned", but comparing these five blades was a lot of fun, seeing how drastically different styles are worked with a similar arsenal of shinshinto steel. I got to feel shinshinto hada like never before.

e. I want to know Norishige's circumstances. The founder of Soshu, dismissed with great injustice by the devotees of semi-mystical genealogies of Masamune and Muramasa. I want to see his style in the wide, powerful brush - with the name and the earliest nenki known.

f. Pulling out good koto blades in good condition from unpapered or ill-papered sword piles.  Always such a great rush of andrenalin.

g. Sadamune tanto in stellar condition. The kind you can't buy for money. Would will it to MET. It is sort of embarassing to see their display.

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

Kirill Rivkin

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Kirill,

This post has nothing at all to do with "The rules of collecting" That discussion has been done to death time and time again. Actually there aren't any, a collector should do what gives them most satisfaction.

This was supposed to achieve two things

1. It was meant as a light hearted exercise and to get people thinking

2. If done and kept it may serve to compare to a later list to gauge how an individual's tastes change.

The mishmash list as you described it are as I said based predominantly on blades I have seen first hand and liked a great deal. The choice has nothing to do with name or money it has to do with blades that I really liked. So to clarify:

1 Awataguchi- blades seen at Christies in 2005

2. Ko-Bizen- Samurai art expo 2016

3. Shintogo British Museum Yukimitsu Michael Hagenbusch collection

4. Tiama DTI 2014

5. Rai Kunimitsu DTI

The others frankly I don't clearly remember where I saw them but I hope this clarifies the point that the list is based on personal experience observation and preference. It has nothing to do with buying big names. For me the object of owning such a list is they represent the best examples I have seen of the features I like in a sword. Even it was achievable, which for me it isn't, it has absolutely nothing to do with one upmanship showing off or bragging rights they just happen to be, in my opinion, the best examples of the art.

Regarding other points I can understand your love of Norishige, I don't share it and for me the best Soshu work is Shintogo and Yukimitsu but that doesn't make you wrong and me right it is just different.

Oh and by the way the  according to Tanobe Sensei the term "Shodai Yamato Shizu" is used  on Juyo papers to distinguish the mumei  work of Kaneuji after he moved to Shizu from that of his pupils. So that's "what the hell that means."

I am not sure what has given you your chip on your shoulder but I would appreciate it if you didn't use what I hoped was a reasonably gentle and good natured post as an opportunity to rant about something that isn't there.

 

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I think trying to compete with others is not a good way to go in collecting. If someone just starting collecting goes to top dealer and gets a top item, that is just fantastic. I think the achievement in owning something might be that you have just personally set a goal like that. Even though you can get amazing items by top tier makers in a day (if you have the finances and in some cases connections too) as you put it, can you get the exact item you will want?

 

As an example I have personally a quest for a blade from Hōju school, I know there are some top ones of that school that will be forever unobtainable for me, and probably in the last 10 years there might have been around 5 Hōju tachi for sale that I would really have wanted to own in my collection. Unfortunately the timing was never right for me at that time when the items were sold. Now if I just would want to own a Hōju blade there are probably 10+ items for sale in Japan at this given moment by various dealers, the thing is just that I don't really like any of the ones for sale that much. Of course I am not even in buying position at the moment, hopefully I will be when I encounter an available Hōju tachi that I like, be it 5,10 or 20 years onwards.

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Gentlemen,

This is a light-hearted topic and should be treated as such. There is nothing wrong with dreaming and aspiring. Whether these are top-name smiths, as in my case and Paul's, or more modest dreams. Everyone is entitled to their aspirations and casting aspersions on those is just petulant.

 

Kiril - I am interested in reading these pamphlets you mention below:

'30 pages pamphlets written on the subject. Buy a library, spend decades like me in "Studious Research, while cultivating the Inner Aesthetics of Samurai".

Authored with no exception by owners of about a dozen of "very beginner Juyo" and other budget-friendly blades.'

Please tell me the names and authors so that I could look them up.

 

By the way, Kurokawa san measures up the visitors to his shop and decides what blades he will sell to whom. It is a complete fallacy that one with a stash of money can simply just walk into Sokkendo and buy whatever they want, let alone the topmost blades. Quite the opposite, in fact. One of the top collectors in the world really wants some of Kurokawa san's blades. His wealth is measured in 8 or 9 zeros. However, Kurokawa san does not sell them to him. I am afraid, as you yourself know, in Japan it is primarily about relationships, respect etc etc. Similarly, there are old collectors in rural Japan with great blades  - Masamune, Sadamune, Takagi Sadamune, ko-Bizen, etc, who deliberately do not sell to Tokyo dealers and avoid them. Again, not only money, but relationships and regard for who the next custodian of a blade is.

 

Another point, obliquely made by Kiril - there is no such term as a 'successful collector'. Success in collecting can only be defined by oneself, since only one can determine the criteria and methods to selecting and achieving one's collection. Now, such methods and criteria can evolve over time, and that is common and normal. But again - one needs to be happy with his/her approach to collecting and not become enslaved by an obsession to own a certain item, because such a pursuit could lead to a psychological and financial ruin. 

 

 

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Thank you Paul for this interesting topic. 

 

Michael sets out the big dream. There are a few cut-throat billionaires in Japan who can't even get there and money isn't the problem. It's a strange country. Here we'd just put everything in auction and let them bleed each other out to "price find" the piece. I don't know if this is only with sword because of their special cultural role or say, it extends to pottery and whatnot.  

 

Now we also have "quirks" in our aspirations, things which go off the beaten path or things we know just don't fit into the canvas. 

 

  • I'd love one day find a fine exemplar of Nosada's work paired with a Higo koshirae. Which is strange given my collection goals
  • I also would love to find a particularly rustic Ko-Hoki. This one at least makes a bit of sense...
  • I love swords with surprising stories. Discover new swords with great stories attached. It's an open-ended dream...no particular requirements here. 

 

Oh, and have many friends living close-by sharing the same passion, so that we can study and share today. 

 

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The main enjoyment of collecting Nihonto is in the hunt.  After catching them ( monsters) is a great rush in owning them for awhile. The whales are returned to the ocean from which they came, is very satisfying.  Go fishing have a good time dreaming what you might catch. The little fish take home.  Owning a whale is  an over-whelming status symbol that is not necessary to be happy,  with,  what you caught. TJ and kokuho  are whales, is a great responsibility. Good luck.

 

Tom D. 

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Hate to sound like the master from kung fu lol, but for me, talking of a fantasy collection is linked to the long road to disappointment.

 

If you cant be happy with what you can afford, then whats the point of being in this hobby? (as a sword owning collector and not the striver that will never be happy)

 

One must be at peace with what one can afford haha 

 

 

 

 

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I haven't given it a lot of thought, but off the top of my head, and being relatively new to collecting koto, here is a list.  Oh, and by the way, I would like to find them all in pawn shops and rescue them....

 

Koto

One of the Sansaku - Nagamitsu, Kagemitsu or O-Kanemitsu

A big, early, beautiful Soshu masterpiece, maybe Sadamune

A fantastic Kaneuji

A nice soden Bizen

A very early Heian blade that is actually beautiful

Sanjo or Gojo

Hasebe

 

Shinto/Shinshinto

A nice Suishinshi Masahide with first rate horimono

A Umetada Myoju of similar ilk

A Kiyomaro like the Masayuki that our new friend Georg found

Inoue Shinkai

Horikawa Kunihiro with horimono

 

Sorry, that's 12, so I guess I better stop!

 

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Robert,

With so much to choose from I think we can allow you an extra player! interesting and eclectic mix. The variation in what you would be seeing should keep you occupied for many years (almost as many as it would take any of us to create such a collection!!)

Alex, 

You are absolutely right wanting what you cant achieve can make you forget to appreciate what you do have  and being grateful for the opportunity to study them.

 

As a general point I think there seems, unsurprisingly, to be some differences in what people perceive as the motivation for aspiring to "big Name" pieces. There is a view that ownership of such work is purely a status symbol. However the reality is that the smiths listed are big names because the quality of their work was over and above the norm ( That may open a whole new discussion but maybe another time) So aiming for them in a fantasy collection is for me, and I would guess Michael as well,  more to do with having the chance to study such highly regarded work than it is about any being able to tell people I have them. Of course I will never know and it might well be that should I ever have such a chance smugness might take over!

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It looks like this is not restricted to swords so some tsuba and in no particular order

All from the Birmingham museum so I had these in hand. Also there is condition problems

If the selection was from any source then the selection would have been too difficult for me

Like most selections it tells more about the collector than the collected

 

 

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Edited by kissakai
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Imagine, after making my post above, I just pulled a Kamakura period (ko-kissaki, original length about 33cm) signed Bizen Kuni Osafune XX.  It does look like it has something resembling a sansaku hamon.  So for now, I will dream that maybe I found a sansaku in the weeds as hoped!  (Kagemitsu, Kanemitsu...?)  I will eventually post some photos, but don't want to dream to end too soon.....

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Grev,
Ignore Tom's rudeness. I would take action, but like most I am not sure what is going on  in his mind and what he intends :dunno:
Fact is, they are great pics and some really lovely tsuba. Quite a few I would love to own. You had unique access that no-one else did and the fact that you were able to present them to us is awesome. Most of us will never see them or know of them otherwise. And oneday...who knows. Maybe they will make it onto the collector market.

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Thanks Brian

No problem about Tom sometimes I wish I had a recall button after reading some of my comments and realizing what I'd written was not what I wanted to say

I will try with any of my post replies to add value to a post rather than detract from it, or of course maybe say nothing at all

 

I would like to add that I do have an identical tsuba to one in the pictures and one that is a near match

Also another of these tsuba is being currently made by a well known Tsubako

 So that 30% of my fantasy

 

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On 8/28/2020 at 12:34 PM, paulb said:

Oh and by the way the  according to Tanobe Sensei the term "Shodai Yamato Shizu" is used  on Juyo papers to distinguish the mumei  work of Kaneuji after he moved to Shizu from that of his pupils. So that's "what the hell that means."

 

 

This is the subject on which unfortunately much needs to be said, yet nothing is being said.

Japanese nihonto experts are the sole exception in the whole world to claim the ability to suddenly reconstruct the detailed biographies of people who lived 700 years with no help of either contemporary documents or signatures. The defense is that "such biography makes sense" and "it explains the style". The drawbacks are however mostly three in nature:

a. Destruction of later generation's signatures as the work is now being reattributed to the first generation. I just finished working with late Nambokucho Norishige school daito, and its amazing how many clearly Norishige inspired oshigata you find in old books, with dozens of names from Echigo, Etchu and Echizen. All signed. Yet today finding a single Echizen Chogi or shodai Momokawa is like a miracle. They exist only in old kantei tables as dozens for Etchu Tametsugu, while today essentially only three smiths in the whole school are papered to - Norishige, Etchu Tametsugu, Sanekage. Sometimes one sees Yasunobu. Kinju,Tomoshige are paperable because they are not strictly Norishige-like, same goes for some early Uda. In Shizu the problem is worse to the extent that a huge diversity of signatures just drops into the scene as one approaches Oei and the difference in style is such that the chances to paper as "genious Shizu" or even Sadamune becomes nil. Everything else is signatureless - yet Nanmbokucho Shizu and Yamato Shizu greatly exceed in number Naoe Shizu examples. One of the largest schools of the period, being attributed to a single person. Well, maybe now with the whole TWO generations.

b. Japanese being Japanese, eventually the better works despite the late sugata will still get attributed to the "genius shodai". And then one wonders why Yukimitsu has 5-7cm long kissaki. This greatly confuses the learning, dating and eventually undermines the belief in papers, since a lot of such attributions do not hold when repapered. But in the mean time the experts collect a lot of fees from those seeking to find out if their blade can by any chance be the real genius and not some nidai shmuck.

c. In the end the practice reinforces the belief in often artificially constructed lineages and relations. In no small part Norishige was traditionally sidelined since he has no clear lineage, and from a province filled at the time with heretics and semi-criminals. With Shizu the situation is even more bizarre - as despite the fact that Yamato is the only school which early Soshu can be mistaken with, only Awataguchi roots of Soshu are canonically accepted. Sure, someone from Yamato must have came to Kamakura - but I doubt it was to study as much as he was summoned to teach. Soshu hamon in nie,  masame in ha, mokume sandwiched between masame in ha and at the mune - much of it bears witness of Yamato influence. It can be that not Kaneuji came to Kamakura, but Kanenaga, or Kaneyuki, or even Hosho Sadamune if he existed - and founded Soshu with the later generations of Awataguchi. Yet the possibility is destroyed by people claiming to be capable of nearly always (save some embarassments like ko uda) attributing a blade precisely to a person with absolutely no signatures, no clear contemporary records etc. etc. etc. to back it up.

 

Kirill R.

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Kirill,

This may as you say be an interesting and worthwhile discussion to have. There is no doubt that any attribution of any artform made over 700 years ago is fraught with problems and that is no less true with Japanese swords. As has often been said here ultimately what any authenticating body does is offer opinion. The opinion of the NBTHK is worth a hell of a lot more than mine, and with respect yours, as it is based on a great deal more research than either of us could carry out in a single  lifetime.

What I fail to understand is why if you feel so strongly about this you don't start another thread rather than once again trying to hijack one with a tenuous link to the content and very little if anything to do with the OP. What is the possible advantage in doing that? If there is "Much to be said" why not say it in a dedicated post rather than adding here where it has little relevance to the original intention?

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Interesting tangent Kirill, repackage it as its own thread and let's have a go at it. It's not good to let these things sit and simmer in vaguely-related threads where they're unlikely to gather replies, data and counter-arguments. It's a worthy topic. 

 

 

 

 

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Yup, I am also interested in learning more about Kirill’s research into Norishige and Etchu and  Echigo offshoots etc. 


Of course, we need to correct some inaccuracies, in that not only Awataguchi but also Bizen (Sukezane and Saburo) are canonically accepted as progenitors of Soshu. 

Kirill, do you have some more research into Hosho Sadamune and his linkages? He is a rare bird indeed and while mentioned in some of the old oshigata books (Tsuchiya, etc), there are virtually no authenticated blades. Well, there is one I came across and attach it for reference. It is JuBi. 

5CC29D6A-BEFD-493D-A3E2-87FAB19A0557.jpeg

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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