Is it koto?

[Babu]

I'm told this blade is koto.

I'm not good at the complexity of suguata for the period.

Can anyone confirm if this is possibly accurate?

Blade is now 25"

Hamon appears to be ko midare based on suguba. 

No obvious flaws

Machi okuri by at least 4"

In good polish.

Solid silver habaki

Comes in high end WWII Koshirae with family mon.

Pierced tsuba.

Not a heavy sword

Thank you.

 

[Surfson]

It seems a good hypothesis Adam.  It is koshizori and has been shortened one or two times.  

[Babu]

Can anyone hazard a guess on period more specifically.

It's got no signature and looks osuriage.

I'm not great at kantei I'll admit.

Do you think it's early?

I respect it will be just an opinion.

[SAS]

1500s🧐 maybe.......

[Babu]

I've got it on approval for a few days and as it's mumei Osuriage I'm wondering if it's Kamakura,nanbokucho or Muromachi or perhaps even later...

Itame hada,masame in the ji ,ko midare based on Suguba.

I'm at my worst with sword kantei on mumei Osuriage blades.

Thank you.

Adam

 

[paulb]

Adam,

You say "masame in the ji" do you mean in the shinogi-ji? if so that might suggest your blade is later rather than earlier. You see this sometimes in Yamato and Mino works of the late Kamakura and Nambokucho but more commonly it is regarded as an indicator of shinto workmanship 

[Babu]

48 minutes ago, paulb said:

Adam,

You say "masame in the ji" do you mean in the shinogi-ji? if so that might suggest your blade is later rather than earlier. You see this sometimes in Yamato and Mino works of the late Kamakura and Nambokucho but more commonly it is regarded as an indicator of shinto workmanship 

Thank you Paul.

It's pretty tight itame with some masame in the shinogi ji .

I'll try to capture more detail.

If it's early I'm keen if it's later I'm not so as I prefer the more flamboyant hamon.

What are your gut instincts on what you can see ?

 

 

 

[paulb]

from your description I am more inclined to think it is more likely shinto or even shin-shinto but all you can see in the images is the shape which could be earlier and a broad nioiguchi which would suggest later. If I had to bet on it I would go late shinto but it is just that a guess.

[Babu]

I was also leaning this way ergo the post.

I'll take some detailed images and help the kantei in a little bit.

[16k]

That blade has seen several polish and if I'm seeing right, there’s not that much ha machi left compared to mune machi, which would indicate some age, and that’s a lot of Ana for a Shinshinto blade. But Paul is more expert than I’ll ever be so I’ll go with his judgement.

[paulb]

I don't make any claim to expertise JP maybe in another 30 or so years or the next life!

The pointers for me is the masame in the shinogi-ji and the look of the hamon. The shape and the nakago can always be made to look earlier but the construction is telling us something I think

[16k]

Very true, my friend!🍻

 

And actually, that’s what I mean by expertise. On the shape alone, I would have thought Muromachi. The other "details" would have eluded me completely!

[Babu]

Updated images with hada.

Also added dimensions.

The blade is as far as I can tell in great polish with no flaws I can see.

its 24.5" nagasa with a solid silver scratched rain habaki.

29mm ha to mune at the Machi.

19mm sori.

Tip point to yokote line 28mm

Width at yokote from ha to mune 18mm

6mm kasane at habaki ,was 7.5 originally before Machi okuri. 5mm along the blade 

Nakago 21cm from mune to cut.

32 3/4 inch total blade and nakago.

If this is Osuriage then sword was over 1metre in length. So nagasa may have been 33 inches.

 

Itame/masame with midare based on Suguba and a boshi that does not really turn back.

I've studied the nakago and it looks all old blade. It's even super thin at the ha side running into the nakago and down to the tip.

You could almost re sharpen it. Much thinner than I would expect of an ubu finished nakago.

 

[16k]

Whatever it is, it looks like a very nice blade. If I were you, I’d keep it. If it is the suriage that bothers you, this one has a good reason to be as WW2 blades were expected in that length range.

[paulb]

I'm still leaning toward shinto but as JP says it looks to be a well made blade in relatively good condition, especially if it has been through the war. 

As always it depends what you are looking for in a sword and whether what you are seeing matches your criteria.

[Babu]

It's a bit dull for my taste to be honest.

Yes it's in good condition and polish and we all know that's a plus.

Family Mon Gunto mounts also a plus 

But it's Suguba .......

 

Thank you all for your help.

 

[16k]

Suguha is something I didn’t care for at the beginning but since I kinda like extremes, my two favorite types of Hamon are a beautiful Suguha or a wild Chiji hamon.  Besides, it’s supposed to be one of the most difficult Hamon to achieve.

[Surfson]

I doubt that it has been shortened much due to the placement of the nakago ana, and it may well have always been mumei.  I concur that masame in the shinogi ji is more often associated with shinto swords. I tend to agree that it is either late muromachi or early shinto, maybe keicho.  You didn't tell us the price, which influences the process a bit.  Solid silver habaki sounds good, as does a mon on the shin gunto koshirae.  It appears to be in a good state of polish with a nice hada, if a little monotonous hamon.  it's pretty short at 25".....

[Ray Singer]

I am surprised that no one has said this, but to my eyes the blade looks like a typical Sue-Bizen. Suguha-based in nioi-deki with what appears to be sparse hataraki (not much happening within except small nie-based activity along the habuchi). Shows areas of coarse jitetsu with bo-utsuri. 

 

I hope the fingerprint comes off.

 

[Surfson]

Ray, what era would you place it in?  Is "Sue" mid muromachi or earlier?  And, by the way, does the term differ in meaning for various makers and schools?  e.g. is Sue Sa roughly the same period as Sue Bizen? Or does it just have the generic meaning of "later"?   I had a blade that papered Ko-Mihara by Miyano san and the NBTHK papered it as Sue Bizen.  

[paulb]

Hi Ray,

Yes thats a perfectly reasonable call. I think the masame in the shinogi-ji and the generqal look of hada, lack of activity in the hamon moved me to think it is later. I admit I did not see bo-utsuri.

Bob,

"Sue"  basically places blades in the later part of a schools period so vairies from school to  school. 

[Babu]

Ray I've removed the thumb print. And oiled the blade again.

Approximately what date are we at?

I'm curious.

 

[Ray Singer]

Sue-Bizen is late Muromachi. 

[Jim P]

Hi Ray I thought Sue-Bizen  too, like Morimitsu look at the boshi and hada found  on a similar one on aoi https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-bishu-osafune-morimitsu-sakusue-bizen/   but a quick look at Sue-Bizen and you get mostly Torii Sori but you see Koshi Sori { Bizen Sori } in this sword so its off the norm for a later time it’s probably  from the early Sue-Bizen ? but I can’t shake the feeling its got a lot of shinto in it ?

[paulb]

You know gentlemen I think this clearly illustrates that making these calls is not an exact science, especially when working on photos. Where we are actually ending up is a time span of possibly 50 years or so from the end of the Muromachi to the beginning of shinto.  I think looking again Ray is probably close to the money but I am not sure we can get too much closer.

 

[Babu]

Thank you gentlemen.

You have been a great help.

As always I'm humbled by your collective skills.

Thank you so much Adam

[Rivkin]

Let us push some shock value here.

Very likely ko Senjuin.

Second choice - Mihara, more likely early rather than later.

 

Kirill R.