Jump to content

Confirmation of a mei on a tsuba.


Babu

Recommended Posts

I picked this up the other day sold as Hotei by MotoYoshi. 

I think this may be wrong as I read the mei as Motochin 元珍 or even Genchin. 

Furukawa Genchin was an artist of the Edo period who signed with these characters. 

Also I don't think this is Hotei. 

 

I believe it is Jizo, 

Jizo has a sort of double role. 

To protect children, also to protect the souls of children who passed away and unborn babies. In the Japanese belief, it is thought that the soul of children who died before their parents, have not built up enough good deeds so are not able to cross the river to the afterlife. They remain on the side of the river, having to pile stones as an act of penance. Devils come to try to destroy these stone towers, and this is when O-Jizo-san appears and saves them by hiding them from the evil spirits in his clothing. He then looks after them as as guardian in replacement of their parents eventually smuggling them across the river in his robes.

2nd Jizo also protects travelers, which is why you will often find Jizo statues on the side of the roads. This tradition is derived from the ancient belief of Dosojin. Dosojin is a deity who protects travelers. The deity statue was placed on mountain pathways, crossroads, and at the borders of villages. The statues were generally in the shape of a couple. Within time, Jizo has taken over their role.
Jizo also protects firefighters and saves the souls suffering in the afterlife.

 

So looking at the tsuba, we have Jizo the child protector. 

With Japanese culture promoting the idea of saving face and having strong Hara, are we to assume that this was only way for this samurai or person to actually grieve?

IMG_20200809_202852078~2.jpg

IMG_20200809_202844543~2.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's also exactly the same kanji for Genchin I've seen the same mei on tsuba. 

The real trick here is which one as both were Furukawa school. 

I've never had a mei that could be read more than one way. 

I'll look into it tomorrow. 

Thank you for the steering. 

 

MODS CAN YOU PLEASE MOVE THIS INTO TOSOGU? 

THANK YOU ADAM 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam, there are many examples of Mei being read different ways. Sometimes it can be a Mei that many Japanese traditionally just got wrong, and sometimes an alternative reading is actually favoured to distinguish that particular smith from a similar sounding one.

E.G.

長義 which is read Chogi or sometimes Nagayoshi. (Both will communicate which swordsmith you are indicating.)

金道  Kinmichi, instead of Kanemichi, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If mototaka

He was the founder of the Mito school Sekijoken line. One of the four main division of Mito in Hitachi province. 

The son of Taizan motonori,a pupil of the Yakoya school. 

Lived during the last part of the 18th century and long lived. 

Records indicate he was a skilful copyist of the style of Nara artists, Joi, Shozui, Yasuchika Toshinaga etc. Also a teacher of great ability. His studio was crowded with pupils amongst them Takase Yeiju aka Hisanaga. 

Artists of this school first followed the yokoya style then turned to nara school style. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Adam,

 

Sweet thought about Jizo, but this is definitely Hotei instead of Jizo for various reasons.  First of all, Hotei dumping a child out of his treasure sack is a very common motif in Japanese art.  Remember that a "sack" in Japan can be more like a furoshiki that is simply a large square cloth that can have its corners gathered together to hold things like a sack.  For example, see the painting below: Hotei has the four corners of his furoshiki tied in a big knot behind his neck and he wears the "sack" (with the child in it) in front by putting his head through the opening below the knot) .  If you look at the "adult" on your tsuba (see a copy of your tsuba below the painting), you'll see that he's holding the edge of the cloth in his mouth and dumping the child out of the cloth.  It is not his robe or kimono (the fabric of the "sack" is plain while his kimono has a design - look at the shoulders).  Furthermore, Jizo is never shown unshaven but Hotei is, and the character on your tsuba is unshaven.  Finally, your tsuba takes the humorous approach (Hotei is clearly laughing and the idea of dumping the child out is boisterous), and Japanese do not generally treat Jizo in a humorous manner.

 

 

Hotei and child.jpg

Tsuba.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

I think it's even harder to determine validity of a tsuba mei, than a sword mei. With a sword, at least you can check sugata, & other characteristics.

Hi Ken, yes and no. If you can find extant works by the artisan that have already been papered then you can compare the skill of the artist against your tosogu item and then the mei for similarities.

I've seen many that are a big NO, without even seeing the mei strokes because the quality was just not there.

I've many pieces won't go to shinsa because shinsa will not tell me anything that I don't already know.Also  having found the artists already papered works and study from books, I know it's right.

I don't even know if shinsa would add any value to the pieces financially.

I had three swords pass shinsa back in 2008 was it ...2010? In the UK. Not one got any more money than they would have without the papers and they were not easier to sell either. However I did learn more about them from the shinsa panel so it was worth it. It was also quick and relatively cheap then. 

Even so £750 for the pre shinsa polish , submission fees and postage are not recoverable on the blade sale IMHO.

It was a relatively expensive way for a question to be answered.

I appreciate some people never buy unpapered items though.

There is also the understanding that if an items not got some form of papers now, then it's unlikely to get them .

I have several items brought into the UK between 1890 and 1930 by WA Young that would not have been considered for anything other than their beauty as collectables.Its only in the last few years we are starting to learn some are ”big names.”

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Babu said:

There is also the understanding that if an items not got some form of papers now, then it's unlikely to get them

I'm curious, seeing the number of items passing just Hozon shinsa, what gave you this idea? A lot of collectors, not having easy access to shinsa, won't bother with it. This doesn't mean that those items wouldn't pass. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should be more specific sorry.

I'm not talking about old collections .

More:

If anything coming out if Japan, of quality, does not have papers the general consensus is that they will not get them or have already been submitted.

This I read on here many times and the reason is how easy it is for a resident to achieve this and increase, in their mind, value.

 

I still am unconvinced by the value shinsa certification holds if you already know what you have and can evidence this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, different story altogether - indeed if a big name sword/tosogu came from Japan without any proven provenance (ex-Sasano for instance) and without papers, then I would be very carefull indeed.
If you know what you have and can evidence it, great! However, when the time comes to pass things on, NBTHK kanteisho do make it a lot easier. They're by far the most commercially interesting certifications to have at the moment (plain fact)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It really does depend Dirk.

As an example I have a Fuchi kashira by Masachika.Bushu-ito school ,Kitani family.1415188324_DSC_49462.thumb.JPG.c3aad310dead7870b341e80ec24ed95f.JPG

John lissenden thought it was Tsuchiya Masachika aka Yasuchika.Nara School.

However I found a tsuba papered by the artisan Bushu Masachika.

It is IMHO the same level of skill and the same mei.

It also conforms with Markus Sesko examples .

So what will shinsa offer other than a document of beautiful calligraphy and a photo?

This is just my opinion and I appreciate others will have different.

I'm not trying to be controversial.

 

 

Screenshot_20200809-115944~2.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, with some luck the paper will say Masachika (Bushu Ito). It will confirm your own findings and - which I was alluding to - provide peace of mind and certainty to a future owner should you choose to let it go at one point. Obviously papering for commercial reasons only makes sense from a certain price point, the other reasons for papering being educational to confirm your findings, or shed light on doubtful mei,... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in your opinion do you think the example I've posted is in any doubt? 

This is the point I'm trying to make. 

Would you even consider that a shinsa would pink slip this fuchi kashira? 

If they did, wouldn't you challenge them (if that were possible) based on what you see here? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This very thing happened with a sword in a Shinsa.  The sword was pinked even though the owner had identical signatures in his reference books and he challenged the result, to no avail.  Hence the old saying "submit to three different shinsa before making any decision" ( in this situation about removing mei).  Of course, three Shinsa is costly and the sword (or fitting) would have to be well worth it.

 

BaZZa.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bazza said:

The sword was pinked even though the owner had identical signatures in his reference books

Reference books are a bit of a minefield. Sometimes there's now new knowledge, and when it's privately published it's sometimes done to enhance sales by a collector. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Swords and tosogu are very different beasties. 

If a sword does not conform to a specific smith it will if signed be pinked. 

Tosogu cannot be judged so critically as an artisan can offer many styles of workmanship. 

The above Fuchi-kashira and tsuba by Masachika are identical in style of workmanship and quality of the work. 

I have no doubt it is by the same person. 

Only my lack of photography skill let's it down. 

 

_20200703_180156.JPG

_20200703_180848.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thank you George.  I appreciate your opinion you are indeed a very valuable asset to the community and I say that from the heart.    

They are still not for sale but thank you for your offer.

I can only go on the data provided on the collector ”cards” which I am slowly adding to my own way of recording this old data.  Both came off a tsuka that was collected by WA Young in 1922.  ”Lone tsuka (for uchigatana or wakizashi) no menuki.  Ito is jabarra and looks significantly degraded.  Samegawa:coloured shark skin   Fuchi of a dragon signed Masachika  Kashira of a plum tree (Ume) partially in decay possibly by the same artist though stylistically different, similarities are noted and discussed.  Probably a special order set."    The connection was established as this and similar themes of dragons and Ume as a connection: 

 

The sleeping Dragon plum tree Tokyo The Crouching dragon plum tree at Kameido.  Etc    

This does mean that you could be right. However the metropolitan museum has a set with this kashira but an altogether different and highly suspicious Fuchi which is no match in style or IMHO theme.  This is because I believe it's believed theme is the three friends of winter.  This should then be featuring pine,matsu 松, plum,ume 梅, and bamboo,take 竹; all of which retain their vigor during cold weather.

The pine was associated with chastity, the bamboo with uprightness, and the plum with purity and renewal.

However I caution that the metropolitan museum piece is again stylistically different and executed thus: Tsuchi-me-ji (hammered surface) with usu-shishiai-bori or usuniku-bori.(low relief carving) There is no reference to the pine on either piece I noted when I saw them.

So there are two extent examples of this kashira and two different Fuchi.  Yet which is correct, if indeed any?  Regards Adam

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Adam, just to clarify, my statement of interest in this Fuchigashira was made a long time ago in relation to another thread before I had seen the supposedly matching Kashira.  Just like here, in that earlier thread you posted a picture of the Fuchi without the Kashira... (why do you keep doing that???  Why not post pictures of the Fuchi and Kashira together?)  Now that I've seen the Kashira, I wouldn't be interested in them as as set (but would be interested in the dragon as an orphan - it is really good - I mean that sincerely).  In this thread, you asked Dirk why should you bother with papers for this set of Fuchigashira.  Well, papers would give you an authoritative answer (but I'm fairly certain that they won't paper by the NBTHK as a set - as mentioned before, the quality, motif, style, carving, chisel marks and alloys do not match).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The offer was made July 29th so two weeks ago, but be that as it may you have not seen the two together so I'd be concerned your making a few assumptions based on what you think you can see in one bad image I provided . 

If John lissenden and WA Young were happy, then I will leave it at that for now. 

I'll take on board what you say though and investigate further thank you. 

 

Still be that as it may we are off thread and you're clearly, from your PM's and responses to posts in which I comment, now intent on disruption and discredit. 

You seem to be ignoring your own PM'd advice George. 

That could, if I didn't know you better, make you a hypocrite.

 

Therefore don't trouble yourself any more, you do not need to comment on my posts or indeed anything I say in other posts. This way you will reduce your stress levels and you should enjoy the forum more. 

 

So my advice is Enjoy the forum, enjoy life as none of us know how long we have , But please from now on refrain from commenting in my posts. 

 

Thank you and God bless

Adam. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Babu said:

Still be that as it may we are off thread and you're clearly, from your PM's and responses to posts in which I comment, now intent on disruption and discredit. 

You seem to be ignoring your own PM'd advice George. 

That could, if I didn't know you better, make you a hypocrite.

 

 

 

 

Adam,

If you are intent on commenting on other people's items for sale (and practicallty every other thread), you can hardly complain if they do the same in return with items that you own. To do so would make you a hypocrite would it not?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

John your statement is fundamentally flawed.

If it's factual and constructive then I don't have a problem at all.

This principle of replying to posts was and I imagine still is how the NNB is supposed to work is it not?

If I must only pretty up my opinions to suit the members on here then it's likely that opinion isn't really mine isn't it?

I am certainly not the only one that replies but I get some have little to offer so may remain quiet.

I've noticed the more established members are immune to recourse no matter what they say.

However this isn't in relation to any sales. It doesn't even offer anything to the original post about the many ways to read a mei.  Or even the digression to shinsa or no shinsa.

It's nothing but a dig.

Just like the PM was.

Still I am not sure what the NMB members are offering anymore.

You let people say what they will to enhance a sale, you insist that members only comment through private messages.

There appears to be a systematic problem at the very core of the principles of NMB policies that many feel need review. Not all,but some.

I have no sales on here I don't really like to sell but if I do I welcome all challenge and consideration.

I disagree with many that this is a safer place than eBay. I agree it should be though.

Both eBay and PayPal offer a money back guarantee for up to 180 days and they nearly always back the buyer. I know from experience.Ive had a guy sign for goods then two months later claim he didn't receive the goods.Even with his signiture as proof, he got his money back.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam, I was being factual and constructive.  You brought up the Masachika Fuchigashira in this thread in response to comments by Dirk and Ken.  You then asked why you should bother putting  them through shinsha because you were already so sure they were by Bushu Masachika (even though you say elsewhere that John Lissenden thought the signature on the Fuchi was by a different Masachika - Tsuchiya from the Nara school).  Therefore, I answered your question with facts of how shinsha could help and that the Fuchi and Kashira did not match in quality, motif, style, carving, chisel marks or alloys; therefore supporting the conclusion that they are not a pair and the Fuchi is probably not by Masachika.   My PMs to you have only offered information about your pieces and a request that you behave yourself better on this forum.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...