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Promising blade?


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John may well be right but it could also be a timing issue. The wait for polish submitting to shinsa and if successful the 6 to 12 month delay before getting the blade back and saleable again might make the wait unattractive. Less cash today may be a better option than possibly more tomorrow.

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A business is a buisness and stock is plentiful.Maximisation of profit is what Aoi strive for. 

 

This is that road we often go down where we try to justify our lack of common sense . 

 

For me if an expert sword dealer has that "in hand" and has not decided to Polish and submit it.He has a wealth of resources for second and third opinions.... Speaks volumes to me.

No offence meant to anyone. 

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You are right Adam but the number of top polishers regarded as offering a "juyo level polish" (I think this a fairly new concept BTW hadn't heard of it until a few years ago) means that even mainline dealers can have a long wait.

I am not able to judge the merits of this particular blade, it isn't my thing and I don't know the school that well. My impression is that it is the least highly regarded of the Ichimonji groups, others who study them in greater detail will know better than I do, But they still figure high on the list of possible Juyo passes. However I would doubt it is a foregone conclusion that it would pass in the same way a Fukuoka ichimonji or ko-ichimonji might.

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I'm not sure but I think Kenji might have a window, it's always worth asking, but your right the wait would be long,even indeed IF, he considers it worthy , but as you say that's a cost that may not reap further reward other than an excellent polish.

This will play on someone on an emotional level and it's a long expensive road, but some like this form of gambling.It scratches an itch in another way.

I'm personally not a gambler anymore I am not after that hidden juyo. I just buy what I like as that's where I get my pleasure.If in my own way I'm lucky enough when I come to sell it on ,to be able to recover some, all or perhaps more than I originally paid then this is Good.

However I appreciate this is just my position and others would consider it a bit dull. 😊

I guess the real question here ......is it worth £16,000 $21,000 for what your getting without the juyo potential?

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868035415_KatayamaAoi.thumb.jpg.a376df99ab49f3c0c58415279068fc56.jpg

 

This sword, although attributed to Katayama Ichimonji is not in great shape. I have done a few highlights where there are openings in the steel and one Umegane where the polish is a definite risk (Umegane can "pop"open). I think the shape is nice, however, in this condition it has a few things against it for Katayama like the length being under the Goldilocks 70cm minimum for Juyo candidates in this category. The nakago is ok for a sword this old (the mekugi ana could have been finished better). On polishers I think Kenji Mishina is amazzing for Edo and later blades, there are other polishers that can work on older swords and I would recommend asking Paul Martin  for his advice. Yanagawa is a polisher that can help with very small openings and does magic, do not ask me how, I have no idea but the work is outstanding. I would not bet this sword for Juyo at all, the Mumei Katayama that pass Juyo are near perfect (Kensen) in condition. Recently the Juyo panel in Japan has become very strict and puts great emphasis on the condition of the blade first and foremost. If someone buys this blade it will be to enjoy it as it is. 

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1 hour ago, Kawa said:

Goldilocks 70cm minimum for Juyo candidates in this category

Kawa, do you base this on the type of study that Darcy and Jussi do, or is this just your personal experience?  Does it apply equally to all schools?  

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53 minutes ago, Surfson said:

 

Kawa, do you base this on the type of study that Darcy and Jussi do, or is this just your personal experience?  Does it apply equally to all schools?  

Hi Rob

This is from structured data that is available from blogs like Darcyband Jussi but also from my experience. Almost all my Bizen Juyo are above the 70 cm. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but I did state for the Katayama Katana (this does not include Naginata Naoshi conversions to Katana or Waki from this school) that 70 cm is a good place to be. All said, condition is everything at that level of judgment and I feel this one is a bit bad.

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And do you think that a quality polish will not smooth out most of those flaws?  By the way, I don't see the  umegane, can you point it out?  Also, Tsuruta San implies that he thinks it might be one of the other Ichimonji groups - do you agree with that speculation?   I ask since you are clearly a Bizen aficionado.  I only have a couple of Bizen blades and haven't spent much time studying them.  

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Hi Rob 

 

I know your repute and level of study from observation on the NMB. But, i will bite. No i do not think polish is a way to "smooth" out anything on a sword. I also have a lot of experience with Aoi, as they may have a different variation from the NBTHK i tend to go with the attribution in paper,  it is recent and well founded. The main call here is quality and from my standpoint, the quality is very bad. 

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Hahah, no trap Kawa San.  I have been amazed at how a good polish can make a blade look great.  

 

I have to admit that 70 cm seems to be a magic length, as does 27 1/2" (28" is better!).   I have heard the term "josun" used, and according to Markus' encyclopedia (which is a fantastic book by the way), josun, or standard length, is between 69 and 72 cm.  I appreciate your feedback on this sword, as it seemed to be a fairly reasonable price for a papered Ichimonji to me and was making me think that an Ichimonji might some day be affordable, even if from the least regarded of the four branches.  

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I do not think Katayama Ichi are the least well regarded. I would reserve that honour for Iwato and others. In fact if you see an Ichimonji nagamaki or naginata it almost always gets attributed to Katayama. There are some very good blades in that school, particularly by the founder Norifusa. 
 

I have not visited the Aoi website and am going by what Ray posted above in terms of images. 
For  Katayama Ichi I would want to see a much more slanting , saka choji hamon. Notwithstanding, there are some where the choji and ashi are upright only. 

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When I see a blade like this on a dealer website, I suspect it has already been submitted to Juyo shinsa and failed.  The shinsa numbers indicate that there must be many such "near-miss Juyo" blades out there, that show up for sale as TH (which is a requirement for submission).  Someone once recommended to me that this was a desirable category of blades for collecting -- near-Juyo quality at a much lower price.

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thanks for the discussion - interesting all round

 

This was a naginata naoshi katana that I had previously come across

Length only around 2 shaku 2 sun ~67cm

Bit dilapidated  and rusty (probably more than the Aoi one). Theres an area in the monouchi (omote side) where the hamon is indistinct

Papers TH Katayama. I think price was similar to the Aoi

Would anyone bite?

 

 

3807_01.jpg

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3807_15.jpg

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Matt, the naginata naoshi sounds less promising.  First, it sounds like it definitely needs a polish, second, if there is a problem with the hamon, that may be permanent or not remediated by a polish, third, in general, katana and tachi fetch more than naginata and so it sounds more pricy at the same asking price.  

 

Having said that, yes, I would want to have a good look at it if I were in the market for an Ichimonji.    

 

But remember, I have said for quite some time that I have only recently turned my gaze to koto blades and am very far from an expert.

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Hi Matt,

I hope I would pass - my feeling is that the question mark over the Hamon would always be nagging at the back of my mind and I wouldn’t be a happy owner of it. 
 

That said, it’s an easy decision: I don’t have that kind of money and I don’t need the sword to complete a collection...

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One of the dealers of great repute and honor is Iida. He has a Juyo Katayama (Naginata Naoshi Waki) https://iidakoendo.com/7462/ 

 

The prices are on the high side but he is honest and the quality is there. Please observe. If you save, you could own something that has no doubts and no regrets.

 

The greatest and most impressive Naginata Naoshi Katayama Ichi I have had the honor of seeing is from Darcy Brockbank and that was 80cm plus Nagasa.

 

If you are ready to pay at the 20K mark why not wait it out till you can play at 40K?

 

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You've all given very reasonable viewpoints

 

The reason I brought up this second sword (which by all accounts seems a weaker prospect to the Aoi one) is that after I sent it for a good polish in Japan, it in fact passed Juyo in last year's session.

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Well done to Matt and the precedent shows that one should not pre-judge blades early on the basis of photos.
Also, another trick is to look for recent TH papers, issued in the last 3-18 months. Those could indicate that the dealer either did not have the time, inclination or confidence to submit the blade to Juyo shinsa. Sometimes they merely turn inventory over and people could get a bargain in that the full margin of a Juyo blade might not have been priced in into the TH papered blade. 

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I do remember that sword Matt and I remember you mentioning the Jūyō pass in the forum too. I think you got a good blade as I do believe the pictures were more "honest" (I do believe Aoi is known to doctor pics in their favour as many dealers do) when you bought it, and sword having 2018 Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

Would love to see it after polish too.

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How many swords I wonder do high end dealers sell that subsequently pass juyo. 

It's still a big gamble for someone as no two swords are alike. 

One passes 100 do not. 

What's the spread I wonder. 

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I tend to agree with Babu's post up above.

 

In my opinion this type of praise from a merchant "this is Juyo quality", in a blade they are selling without a Juyo paper, means, "I submitted it already and it failed." or "I'm not going to risk the cost of submitting to Juyo, but you are welcome to."

 

Here is a similar line used by merchants to lure in buyers: "While unpapered, the signature and workmanship suggests it is made by [insert famous smith name]". Or some variation of that. It means: "I'm not taking the risk to submit it, but you certainly can." or "I already submitted it, and it failed, but you should think highly of this." 

 

This is especially true if they are in Japan and already an NBTHK member. Not to imply they are all corrupt there, but they have no really good reason not to polish/submit something they think is a Juyo quality blade, or a famous signature.

 

Everything I just wrote can be summed up by the old axiom, "You get what you pay for."

 

Cheers!

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