Jump to content
Nobutaka

O-Kissaki Katana koto or shinto?

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone,

I'd be grateful for any information or views about my O-kissaki katana. For example, is it likely koto or shinto, is it likely the mei was obliterated and the nakago shortened to make it seem like an o-suriage tachi? Thanks.

 

post-2535-0-73957500-1595248559_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-96346700-1595248594_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-59217900-1595248619_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-31760800-1595248642_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-15935000-1595248659_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-42293700-1595248677_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-96551100-1595248713_thumb.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like a fake mei was removed.

 

Could do with dimensions, reminds me of Momoyama at first glance, not that im saying it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like a shinshinto piece trying hard to look Nanbokucho koto.

 

The steel, the thick kazane, shinogi placement, supreme health, and shape of the hamon and the relative lack of typical koto features indicates as much to me.  

 

Probably the goal was to make it appear like a Nanbokucho Aoe blade, or Soden-Bizen Motoshige, or perhaps Sue-Sa (Sa Sadayoshi?)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read the write-ups of the NBTHK monthly kantei competition they normally suggest that when you see this kind of sugata you think koto nambokucho, Keicho shinto or shin shinto.

 

I don't think it's koto as the patina on the tang seems too light in colour and in the photographs the jihada is very close grained, almost to the point of being mujihada, so I'll back Chris's view and go shin shinto.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Yadatsugu had eleven generations from Echizen so it could still be an accurate kantei to the 11th generation who tried to achieve the greatness of the old swords and replicate them. His generation was the only ones after the 4th gen to attempt this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seen some late Muromachi Bungo swords with tight hada and thick kasane, not that im saying its Bungo, just thoughts.

 

Although, still reminds me of Momoyama, difficult from images

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How long is it?  What is the sori?  Is the final nakago ana punched?   Is there much tapering from polishing or is it as thick in the blade a it is in the tang?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Yadatsugu had eleven generations from Echizen so it could still be an accurate kantei to the 11th generation who tried to achieve the greatness of the old swords and replicate them. His generation was the only ones after the 4th gen to attempt this.

I was referring to shodai Yasutsugu as he did utsushi to tribute Sadamune. But the patina on the nakago looks shinshinto.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Koto nanbokucho generally have thin kasane, and a shinogi line which is placed higher towards the mune to lighten the weight by affecting the thickness of the cross-section, on these types of blade profiles with O-Kissaki. Here it is both wide, thick and O-Kissaki with a shinogi line which is closer to the middle section of the blade than the mune. This makes for a very hefty blade. The metal tends towards Muji-hada (although beware, could be the polish). It's machi-okuri and probably suriage, but again, beware the hadori work and the photos. 

 

Taken together this indicates shinshinto to me. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if he has a shodai yasatsugu he's got a reasonably interesting sword.The smith was required by the shogunate to fake/recreate swords and to re-temper swords destroyed in the Castle fire.This might explain the possible removal of the mei but I cannot see there was one myself (I only have a phones 5 inch screen)

 

I think the Nakago is deceiving.

However a well preserved sword can indeed throw a kantei in dissaray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest telltale signs are: lack of active hada (quite uninteresting , uniform and tight hada) and lack of activities within the hamon (the hamon is empty within).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont see enough for me to make a decision.

 

Nakago might be well preserved, as mentioned,  file marks are there, Katte Sagari, which may help

See lifeless hamon is so many swords.

Looks a stout blade, utilitarian.

I cant make out the hada properly in these images, think in hand would obviously be a lot easier.

And no dimensions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hugely indebted to everyone for their opinions - and glad it has been of interest. Here are the dimensions which I apologise for not including in my original post:

 

 Nagasa: 68.2 cm.

       Sori: 1.3 cm.
       Moto-haba: 30.5 mm.   Saki-haba: 22 mm.
       Moto-gasane: 6 mm+.   Saki-gasane: 4 mm.
       Nakago: 18.9 cm.
       Weight: 632 g.

 

The polish is old but good. If it was gimei what would be the likely reasons for obliterating it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears to be suriage, make it seem older, but, maybe ubu!  

 

 

Tom D.

 

 

Fully agreed. 

 

Having a look at the position of the nakago shinogi at the level of jiri will be useful 

 

 

post-373-0-87543200-1595325684_thumb.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shape + suriage nakago + punched ana = Momoyama

 

.... BUT....

 

Very tight Hada + light clear patina+ fake mei removed (so intention to cheat buyer) = Shinshinto

 

Kajihei?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jp, from the images and mention of a thick kasane, it reminded me of one of those stout swords with long kissaki from the momoyama period, a shape that harks back to Nanbokucho blades. The dimensions however are not in the same ball park.

 

Reminded again about how difficult it is to judge swords from images. I dont know about anyone else, but sometimes been surprised when a sword has arrived and the nakago looks to be a lot different than it did in the images online, in a good way. Sometimes in pics, nakago appears to be that of a later sword.

 

As for Kajihei and the mei being removed, if it were him, id expect to see it with hozen papers already and cant recall his work resembling that of this sword, would need a further research

 

Looks a well made sword, bit of a mystery 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit put off by the ana closest to the machi. It looks like it has been modified on both sides to make it look chiseled. Anyone with sharper eyes have an opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ken, it almost looks to me like it was drilled and the drill bit moved off the spot a couple times on each side, each time making a semicircular groove.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There does seem to be some metal displaced at the lower edge of the upper ana. It may have been done to tighten the tsuka on the nakago due to slight wear? For more adjustment a copper shim is typically fitted in the ana.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the extent of the yasurime—over what seems to be the entirety of the nakago—lend any weight to the theory that this is ubu? (That is to say, as a sword is shortened, is it common for “new” yasurime to be added as the nakago moves up the sword?)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've wondered about that, Richard, but have seen so many yasurime that cover the entire nakago, as well as yasurime on papered Koto blades that look brand new, that I don't think we can use them for much of anything, except the usual school/tosho confirmation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jp, from the images and mention of a thick kasane, it reminded me of one of those stout swords with long kissaki from the momoyama period, a shape that harks back to Nanbokucho blades. The dimensions however are not in the same ball park.

 

Reminded again about how difficult it is to judge swords from images. I dont know about anyone else, but sometimes been surprised when a sword has arrived and the nakago looks to be a lot different than it did in the images online, in a good way. Sometimes in pics, nakago appears to be that of a later sword.

 

As for Kajihei and the mei being removed, if it were him, id expect to see it with hozen papers already and cant recall his work resembling that of this sword, would need a further research

 

Looks a well made sword, bit of a mystery 

Yes, Momoyama is the logical choice, but I’ll go with Shinshinto because I think there is too much here than seems made in order to "trick". As for Kajihei, I was just joking. However, this looks like a very nice sword and I don’t see why someone tried to deceive with it. It is perfectly adequate as it is.

 

Now, maybe the suriage wasn’t a trick at all. Length is on par with WW2 swords, so it could be a Shinshinto sword with what was deemed as a fake mei and as such, judged serviceable for the war, but shortened And re-drilled because it was initially too long and to fit WW2 mountings. Then after WW2, someone tried to Submit it, got a fake judgment and had the mei removed. Who knows maybe attribution papers lie in an attic somewhere. I guess we’ll never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the extent of the yasurime—over what seems to be the entirety of the nakago—lend any weight to the theory that this is ubu? (That is to say, as a sword is shortened, is it common for “new” yasurime to be added as the nakago moves up the sword?)

It is important to remember that yasurime like atobori horimono or hi could be added at different intervals in the swords life. I think prominent yasurime in blades with such patina on nakago lean more towards shinshinto. The sword is definitely suriage due to the finishing of the jiri

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again, thanks for your help and opinions - they are greatly appreciated. I had no idea this would generate such a lot of discussion. I've attached some better photos of the nakago ana's and habaki. One photo shows the obliterated mei, looks like a small rounded punch was used. As far as the width of the blade compared to that of the nakago, it has probably been polished a couple of times. 

 

post-2535-0-88861100-1595413208_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-37101600-1595413243_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-79548400-1595413268_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-64776700-1595413350_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-32987900-1595413398_thumb.jpgpost-2535-0-39873400-1595413540_thumb.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...