I used talc on a blade, is there any way to bring back the shine?

[lowellisaac]

I'm not an expert-- but I have a ko-katana that I believe is authentic, it's signed by Fujiwara Kiyonori, has some signs of age-- the papers for it look pretty good, etc. (I'm as sure as I can be, in other words.) It had a perfect mirror finish (except in areas of wear), and I waited several months before re-oiling it. I thought I did good research-- I got the most pure expensive talc I could find, some high-quality pure mineral oil, and I did my best. I instantly noticed that the shine lost some of its glow-- and when you look fairly closely you can see streaks left in the finish by the talc. After more research I realized this was a big mistake, and I feel pretty bad about it. I didn't realize it would've been smarter to just add a little oil-- I thought leaving the old oil was the bigger risk than not using some top-shelf uchiko powder. 

 

Anyway-- it bothers me now. Maybe I'll get over it, or maybe I should just pass the sword along to someone who knows what they're doing. But-- I thought I'd ask if there was any sort of super-mild thing I could try to bring back that finish, and undo the damage of the talc. I realize that's a terrible thing to say if this is authentic-- but to get it re-polished in Japan would cost more than the value of the sword. If I were to try something extremely mild-- what would be the smartest choice?

 

Thanks for your time,

Lowell

 

 

[Surfson]

Hi Lowell.  You might try to dry the oil with a kleenex and then put some uchiko on it and then gently wipe it off, repeating that process a few times.  If you don't have uchiko, you can get a ball of it from Bob Benson.  I have never heard of anybody using talc on a Japanese sword, and apparently it is an abrasive.  It may be that the abrasive properties of uchiko and talc are quite different.  Best of luck with it.  

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Lowell , years ago, in pre uchiko days I used Talc on my swords instead of uchiko which wasn't available in this country . I dusted it lightly on then wiped it off with tissues . It did no harm to the blades that I could see other than having a tendency to get into the pores ( for want of a better expression ) because it was so fine . I would try some proper uchiko on the blade and see how that goes . 

If you have smothered the blade in talc and rubbed and rubbed or mixed it into a paste with the oil and rubbed and rubbed then chances are you have gone too far and nothing can be done short of a repolish

Ian Brooks

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lowell,

You can try the uchiko to see if it helps but don't try anything else.  You have dug yourself into a hole; stop digging.  In the future, leave repairs to those with proper training.

Grey

[ChrisW]

To scratch that itch, could we see what blade you are referring to?

[Ken-Hawaii]

If it makes you feel better, talc is much softer than steel, & can do no damage. I vote against using uchiko! Uchiko is rock dust, & is hard enough to polish steel, which is exactly what you don't want.

 

The original sheen was probably from choji oil, so just remove the talc with a tissue, & put a fine film back on the blade (except the nakago), to keep it from rusting. Read https://to-ken.uk/resources/sword%20etiquette.htmlfor mor detailed info.

 

Welcome to NMB.

[Bazza]

Yes, welcome Lowell.

 

I agree with Ian Brooks and Ken Goldstein that in my experience also of using it in the pre-uchiko days talc does no harm to steel.  Whereas, uchiko on the other hand, can leave very fine scratches (called hike) with extended use especially if a poorer quality commercial grade is used.  I would suggest buying a small spray can of 100% isopropyl alcohol, spraying it on the blade and wiping gently with a tissue.  Repeated applications will probably be needed.  You may, I hope, be surprised at how well this will turn out.  It may also be that someone prior to your ownership clear-lacquered the blade and that could be complicating the issue.  EDIT: re-reading your post you say "It had a perfect mirror finish...".  That may have been the shine of a lacquer?????  Oh, and please post, if you can, an image of the paper.

 

Before doing anything could you please post some pictures - clear and in focus...  Our knowledgeable folk here can walk with you through the process...

 

BaZZa.

(Melbourne, Australia)

[lowellisaac]

Thanks everyone-- here are some photos. I think the alcohol idea is interesting-- for all I know this could be scratches in a lacquer-- that would be amazing. That sounds like a good plan A.

 

It is my current understanding that talc and uchiko are both made from ground stones-- but uchiko (if it is REAL) is much finer. I read that if you happen to buy the wrong stuff it is mostly talc anyway, so I figured getting top shelf talc would be smarter. I know the powder is only used to remove the old oil before adding new-- and I probably thought that was a bigger deal than it is. This sword has some tiny rust spots-- I just didn't want them to get worse. I thought I was gentle with it, just a few swipes with a clean paper towel-- but these streaks appeared instantly. I added some pure mineral oil, and in most light it still looks pretty shiny-- but it has a "soapy" quality now. I wasn't trying to do anything but maintain it properly. 

 

I'm also interested in the suggestion of finding true uchiko, and rubbing it with that and a bit of water or oil. Maybe that can be plan B.

 

I've attached some photos of the paperwork too-- I was told the original paper needed to be kept on file in Japan, so this is a copy of it. If this is phony I might actually feel a little better-- I hate the idea that I might've hurt a real piece of history. 

 

 

 

[ChrisW]

As the guys suggested above, avoid uchiko for a blade in good polish unless you're an expert with uchiko. I've heard uchiko is generally better for blades that have an older polish or a polish that isn't in the best of shape. I tend to use 99.99% computer grade isopropyl alcohol to wipe my blades down then a thin film of good choji oil, making sure to wipe any excess off.

[SAS]

I recommend contacting a polisher for a quote on a touch up polish; the burnished area has been scratched on the shinogi ji. The papers look like the sales document and a copy of the former police registration.

[lowellisaac]

I recommend contacting a polisher for a quote on a touch up polish; the burnished area has been scratched on the shinogi ji. The papers look like the sales document and a copy of the former police registration.

I can't imagine sinking too much more into this-- but I wouldn't mind talking to someone. Do you have any contacts?

[Bazza]

I've attached some photos of the paperwork too-- I was told the original paper needed to be kept on file in Japan, so this is a copy of it. If this is phony I might actually feel a little better-- I hate the idea that I might've hurt a real piece of history. 

Your papers are, as said, one looking like a sales invoice the other a toruko. the latter being a "registration" paper that stays with the sword and is usually given up when the sword leaves Japan.  As for the statement that the original paper needs to be kept on file in Japan is a furphy, simply untrue.  If the blade has been to a formal Shinsa and granted a paper the original paper most certainly stays with the sword, a record of its issue being kept by the Shinsa organisation.  You might want to wait and submit your sword to a forthcoming Shinsa in the States.  If it is refused a paper then you most certainly wouldn't want to put any more money into it.

 

On polish, I would postpone any hasty decisions.  I wish to go on record to say there is no such thing as a "touch up" polish.  A friend of mine has a katana in near pristine polish.  However, a togishi from Japan looked at it and said "The polish is beginning to dull, but I would start on the second stone".  Note, no touch up polish.  This sword would go through the whole gamut of stones from second stone start to the last stage.  As I look at your photos I would live with the sword for a year or two or three and go to Shows to see as many swords as you can to compare "polish".  There is no worse sinking feeling to send a blade away and be very unhappy with the returned result.  It has happened to me.  Investigate the Articles section of the Board and specially read all the polish articles there.  I recall an excellent one by Guido.

 

On polish and its related issues and problems oceans of ink have been expended.  It is a HUGE subject with no simple answers...

 

Best regards,

 

BaZZa.

 

[SAS]

Lowell, send me a PM if you want to discuss this further.

[DanielLee]

Use isopropyl alcohol and a microfibre cloth to remove the talc and the old oil.

 

Polish seems fine, if you get it cleaned up it should look like how you had it before.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

It is my current understanding that talc and uchiko are both made from ground stones

Yes, you're correct, but talc has a Mohs hardness of 1, while uchiko has a Mohs hardness of between 7-8. Diamond is 10, as a reference, & steel is around 5.5.

 

Read https://blog.yuhindo.com/uchiko-considered-harmful/ for detailed info on why to not use uchiko.

[Valric]

Removing scratches isn't as easy at it may seem. Indeed, no such thing as a "touch-up polish" which is a notion that comes straight from AOI's amateur stone job, it's a term that gives a lot of false impressions. Removing scratches requires equalizing the surface with a coarser stone and move all the way to the gentle ones from there and that's a time consuming process. Now, the harsh truth is that the new finish is unlikely to match the old polish, which means one should redo the finish on the old polish to avoid a glaring difference in style, which is a full process of shiage again. At the end of the day, removing scratches in a professional way is going to end up very close to the work of a full finish. 

 

The complexity of the process just isn't captured with the "touch-up polish" concept, which just should get expelled from our collective vocabulary as it implies it's easy, fast and cheap. We need to be a little stoic here and accept to live with scratches if the polish is good otherwise, it's a reminder of mishandling in the past and present.  

[Oshy]

Akin to the first scratch on a new car, yes it stings, but we learn to live with it and move on. No appreciation for your blade need be lost, its still a beauty that can be adorned, studied and passed on 

[SAS]

English is a bit slippery, but i assure you, if i use the term, i know exactly what i mean as a blade smith who polishes his own work. How many here pontificating on polishing actually do so?

[Greg F]

Lowell I noticed in one of your posts you mentioned getting better quality uchiko and using oil or water with it.

Uchiko is one thing but you definitely dont want to put water on your blade unles you want to really damage it.

 

Greg