NBTHK prices, values and wonderings with an example sword

[waljamada]

Greetings,

 

I've been researching the NBTHK process, levels/colors and designations. I would like to post an example sword and a few questions.

 

1)How much does it cost ($ and time) to submit a sword for papering?

 

2)Does it cost the same no matter the judgment/level the blade receives?

 

3)Do all blades in decent enough condition to be judged receive at least the papering this example sword has?

 

4)In your experience does having NBTHK papers help secure a value for a sword on the marketplace? Also does it matter if the paper is older/newer?

 

5)Using the example sword which sold for $1,800.00, in your opinion, how much value did having the papers add. Also in your experience does one pay more for the paper in lower priced swords than at a higher price/level sword? *Asking to give myself a benchmark sword in the "lower" priced papered katana market. Obviously Nihonto is way more complicated than that but still....

 

6) Does it personally feel good to you to buy a papered sword that also matches your knowledgeable eye on a blade? Or would you rather pay less for that same blade without the paper?

 

7) Does anyone on here have a blade that received the tokubetsu juyo token or Tokubestu Kicho green papers? =];^)

 

Thank you, stay healthy and sharp.

[nagamaki - Franco]

A place to begin answering some of your questions ... http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

[waljamada]

Franco, thank you that was really nice to have a bunch of the information congregated like that. Especially interesting to read how mumei/certain periods are handled.

[ChrisW]

Very informative indeed!

[Blazeaglory]

Yes I think having a paper can add quite a bit of value to a sword for many people. Especially if it's mumei and attributed to a really good school. Having a paper on a mumei blade takes the guess work out of it so when a person is looking to buy they feel more confident with the papered attribution. For the most part I would say with new collectors.

 

Whereas with signed blades a seasoned collector can usually run the comparisons on a signed Nihonto and tell if it's legit or not, so in cases with signed swords WITHOUT paper, they can go for allot of money still if the right collector finds it but at the same time having a paper on a signed blade is very beneficial for the same reasons above.

 

But none of that should stop a person from buying a blade they truly love, with or without papers. But then again, it costs allot of time and money to send a sword too shinsa so over all the paper is a good thing and adds value with each Nihonto varying in price.

 

That's my opinion anyways

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

Does it personally feel good to you to buy a papered sword that also matches your knowledgeable eye on a blade? Or would you rather pay less for that same blade without the paper?

Adam, this is an important question that should be at the top of your list. Buying a blade should IMO be made for what you see in the blade. Sure, as you learn more, you'll see more, but even a new collector should be able to see qualities that he or she deems attractive. A shinsa's kanteisho may provide authentity to a purchase, but really shouldn't be the primary reason for being interested in that blade.

 

I can still remember the first time that I bought a blade solely because I liked it, & was sure that I knew when it was made & the important tosho who made it. When I got shinsa confirmation, a year or so later, it was almost a let-down, because it no longer felt like that blade was my own little secret. Hope that makes sense.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Adam,

 

Have a read around Darcy Brockbank's blog where there are a number of informative and well-reasoned articles on how the papering system works and its impact on value/ perception of value.

 

https://blog.yuhindo.com/

[waljamada]

Ken, a forgotten rediscovered treasure known only to you. I can get the romantic allure to that. "My preeeeeccciiooouuuussss..."

 

Blazeaglory,yeah, I can see it's especially helpful when having an expert help determine a mumei's origin. The eye required is hard earned and helps give the blade a richer history for the rest of us to build from. Gives the "orphan" blades a lineage.

 

Shugyosha,

Thank you for that link! It never came up in my googling. That link is an amazing source of information along with many example blades to learn from. Darcy has a great way of putting the history into tales/context using the blades as a gateway. Also reminded me how different the tangs can be from the old eras onward. Right when you think you see a constant...boom it's gone. I will be going through his swords for sale page for the stories until I've reached the end.

[Jussi Ekholm]

1) Here are NBTHK shinsa prices - https://www.touken.or.jp/english/aboutus.htmlBut take note you'll need to have a person handling the item in Japan, so probably add agent fees to this as well as shipping both ways and other expenses.

 

2) Different prices for different levels of papers, see above

 

3) Getting a Hozon paper should not be a grand feat, it is higher levels when swords are struggling to pass, as they should weed out the weaker swords.

 

4) Old NBTHK papers carry pretty much zero commercial value. Modern NBTHK papers are the standard in the market.

 

5) For an affordable mumei sword (with less desirable attribution) the papers don't add much value but they will most likely help to sell it. 1800$ for katana in decent condition and koshirae with NBTHK paper in my mind seems like a good deal. The particular sword is not what I would personally go for but for that price I see it as a good deal.

 

6) Depends on many things for me. Of course would be amazing to get an unpapered sword up to the top but I am not a huge gambler by nature, so I might rather take a bit safer option with my limited finances.

 

7) One of my two swords has old green papers and I am planning to send it for new papers in the future when I feel ready for it.

 

As you seem to be interested about prices, I think you might enjoy taking a look on this that I posted bit over year ago, some prices for old swords: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27828-price-list-for-old-swords/Just a note of caution, there are lot of things affecting the price of a sword and you should judge each sword as a unique item. However if you track the market on daily basis year after year you will start to get bit of a hang on things and what are some reasonable expectations. There will be reasons why some deals just seem incredibly good without knowing the details, more than often item is problematic in that case. And on the other hand there can be times where the item is expectionally high quality so it will be priced way above it's "peers". As you said yourself in your opening post it is very complicated.

[b.hennick]

There is an old saying "buy the sword, not the paper ". At a sword show a seller had two katana from the same school. One had hozon, the other tokubetsu hozon. The price was almost the same. I bought the one with hozon paper as feel that it was a better, more interesting blade. Years later I sold it as I needed money to buy something that I had been looking for. The blade had since passed juyo.

[Tigerinbamboo]

Stupid question about shinsa...

 

When you send in your sword, do you send any old papers or provenance or other info, or just the sword/saya/koshirae?

 

Humbly,

[Gakusee]

Kathleen, you can send in your research and paperwork, especially if it is in Japanese and comes from a reputable source. 

[SteveM]

In your example sword, the Japanese authentication paper describes the sword as "unsigned" but attributed to Kashū Iehira. This is different from the English description which makes the inaccurate claim that the blade is actually signed by Kashū Iehira. 

 

At the low end of the market its a bit tough to place a monetary value on this paper, but as Jussi says, it should be easier to resell if you have the NBTHK papers. And, the low end of the sword market is almost by definition crowded with beginners, so these are the people are most likely to benefit from having the paper. (Conversely, they are the most likely people to get burnt by fakes). The paper is a way of saying, "some respected people who know a lot about swords looked at this one and judged it to be authentic". 

 

(It looks like a fine, entry level sword, to me. For $1800, I think a first time buyer would have done well to have bought this sword.)

[Tigerinbamboo]

Kathleen, you can send in your research and paperwork, especially if it is in Japanese and comes from a reputable source.

Thank you! ????

[waljamada]

Jussi, that's quite cool what you've put together. It's really useful and also acts as a list of makers for me to look into. Thank you for that. The sword isnt quite my flavor either (I do love the ghost theme though) but it seems a solid length, has some age, in good polish, has a bonus bohi feature, updated mounts with antique fittings, so someone put some money into it plus the cost of papering. So it seems a decent entry level papered benchmark to look around from. Also curious to what happens when you resubmit your green papered sword...=]:^)

 

B.Hennick, the memory you shared shows you have a good eye! The addage of sword over paper is very true as this hobby is one lending to passion and appreciation, but rooted in skill and its loooong history. It also perhaps shows that even the experts eyes differ looking at the same blade.

 

Steve M, thanks for pointing that out. I assumed these marks in the attached photo were a feignt signature but the paper proves otherwise. As my hypothetical benchmark papered sword I did have this as a signed blade as did the buyer probably. I would assume that at the lower end you end up paying more for the paper due to the higher end papers being more standard and with a high price already it ends up built in to what you would likely pay even if it wasn't papered yet easily attributable by the community & higher tier learned collectors. Also since $400 (or whatever the exact cost to shinsa) is of course a higher % of $1,800 than say $18,000. But this kind of brings me to the crux of one of my questions. How much of the benchmark blade's sale price could be fairly attributed to the paper taking into account the swords value as well? Or did it not really get any added value to the sword with the lower cost papered market (say sub $2,500/$3,000)? I also keep in mind every sword and every deal is different plus the random fact to limited time auctions.

 

On a personal note as a beginner myself I actually feel much more secure purchasing a sword that is papered. I only have one and the rest I am currently unable to know much about. I have to scrounge for information as I pull leaf by leaf from a forest full of trees. The papers tell me a lot more than I'd be able to figure out myself standing at the beginning of the nihonto void. Gives me a strong road map to understand the what and why this blade is what it is with a little translation help.

[waljamada]

My one papered sword. Lead me down the Sue Tegai school road. Also the dates that would have allowed the sword to drop the Sue and just be Tegai. Also how the market prefers the pre-sue blades and the general aspects of early to late muromachi blades.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Nothing wrong with buying a papered blade, of course. In fact, usually the wise course if you're unsure of your own kantei, but I feel it's a toss-up whether you're getting the most bang for your buck.

[SteveM]

Hello Adam

 

Or did it not really get any added value to the sword with the lower cost papered market (say sub $2,500/$3,000)? I also keep in mind every sword and every deal is different plus the random fact to limited time auctions..

 

Yes, this is what I was trying to say with my post. It is impossible to reckon the financial value of the authentication papers on a sword like this (or indeed, maybe on any sword). The paper is a form of insurance. I imagine the majority of collectors lack the knowledge and experience required to attribute a sword to its maker/school with any confidence. Hobbyists (like me) can offer their opinion, but the opinion of a hobbyist is not worth a lot on the open market. On the buyer's end, even if you have the verbal assurance or guarantee of a well-known collector, it still presents a problem for you (or your heirs) when the time comes to sell the sword. People like to see the opinion of experts. 

 

In the low-end of the market, swords trade among the new enthusiasts, the curious history buffs, Japanophiles, and of course the treasure-hunters, and $1000 for a mumei sword that looks decent is not an outrageous price to pay regardless of whether or not there are any authentication papers. In the case of your example sword, it is a good-looking sword, it has a full koshirae, and it has NBTHK papers: who could ask for more at that price? 

 

So in short, the papers are a form of insurance, and people like insurance. It makes them feel better. It makes them feel as if they are not being cheated. For some people it validates what they already see in the sword. It enables newbies to say with confidence that the sword is an authentic nihontō. But I think its a waste of time to try to figure out the monetary value added by the paper. 

[Brano]

I am surprised at the location of the bohi on Adam's katana. For the first time I see bohi under shinogi

[Oshy]

Odd indeed, not my cup of tea asthetically. I feel having the bohi so low would compromise the integrity/strength of the blade if too deep compared to the standard position. Primary purpose is to remove material to lighten up the blade, much more material closer to the mume where it's thicker. *Shrug*

[Wayben]

Nothing wrong with buying a papered blade, of course. In fact, usually the wise course if you're unsure of your own kantei, but I feel it's a toss-up whether you're getting the most bang for your buck.

 

 

For a beginner it's not the most bang for the buck, but definitely more bang for piece of mind. 

[Brano]

Odd indeed, not my cup of tea asthetically. I feel having the bohi so low would compromise the integrity/strength of the blade if too deep compared to the standard position. Primary purpose is to remove material to lighten up the blade, much more material closer to the mume where it's thicker. *Shrug*

I agree. I also believe that the primary purpose is to reduce the weight of the blade and the area above the shinogi is more appropriate from this point of view.

[Blazeaglory]

Jussi that was a ton of info on Nihonto in one place! Probably one of if not the best write ups with pictures I've seen!

 

I found swords and websites I've never seen before!

 

Thanks for that!

[waljamada]

Ken, so far my favorite sword of mine I paid the least for but know the least about.

 

Steve, thanks for your response. I agree it is insurance in form of verification. When I look at that sword I do see more than $1,800 worth of materials/work/papers etc...into it. Maybe not or could have just been bad timing for the auction. I messaged the seller about the sword before it sold and he wrote:

1) all fittings are antiques

2) handle was done by Fred Lohman

3) saya was done by Wally Hostetter at Shining Moon in a Birchwood pattern

4) likely a cut down tachi with the bohi added later.

 

Brano and Oshy, yeah that katana of mine is a weird one. It has a 26" nagasa tachi blade w/laquered bohi that my uneducated theories are 1) was made for someone with a stylish flair 2)someone who carried it as a message (perhaps a peace sword type thing) or 3) something to do with religion. Those or of course to hide flaws. I'll probably never know.... clashing against a stout Katana that blade probably wouldnt do well but would fail in style. That or the original owner was so adept he always killed before the swords clashed....or died immediately upon his first battle because he always focused on style over substance. Again sadly, will never know.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Adam, please note that there is no such thing as a "tachi blade." What it's called depends on how it was carried in its koshirae. An argument can be made for those blades signed on ura, rather than omote, but many of them were cut down, & used as the more-efficient katana.

[Ed Harbulak]

Adam,

There is one thing you are over looking with respect to the $1800 sword you based your questions on. Although the blade is papered, the mountings are not. The papers apply only to the blade, not the mountings. Since part of the total price includes the value of the mountings, what would you guess is the value of the blade itself? If you are really interested in nihonto, wouldn't it be better to purchase a papered blade in shirasaya for $1800 and end up with a better quality blade for your money? Yes, I realize that fully mounted blades imply a real, samurai sword with the history and mystique that goes along with that, but in the end, the real value in your example is in the blade, not the mounts.  Just something to think about. 

[waljamada]

Ken, thanks I did not know that. I knew tachi mounts was a thing but had assumed they also had blades slightly unique to that form.

 

Hi Ed, I haven't yet purchased a sword in just shirasaya yet. I think part of my beginner energy is enhanced by experiencing holding, seeing a blade fully mounted, learning the pieces, looking at the wrap, menuki, themes of the fuchi, taking the sword apart/reassembly, proper care, personality of the tsubas, taking it out of the scabbard etc...it is all really very interesting. I also collect a few other forms of art and I do categorize nihonto similarly except it's more tactile than my other collections. I'm waiting to learn more about makers, schools, hada, hamons, eras etc..before I purchase a pure appreciation blade. I used this wxample blade because truthfully I can't discern the values of the pieces that correctly especially the blade, but its bite sizeable enough to try and learn along the way. I understand though it might in all its sums be too subjective to have a "definitive" answer.

 

On a side note, I've done a few experiments of cost to piece together/create full mounts for a blade and it always suprises me because it seems to be discounted when they are originally purchased already made for a blade. Basically the pieces seem many times to out price the sum. Would others agree?

 

The resources I've gotten from people's responses here though have been amazing and greatly appreciated. Spent a good chunk of today on Darcy's blog.

 

I can't seem to find if there is an NBTHK database of swords open to the public. Is there one that members can access? Would be amazing if they had something done similarly to Darcy's blog as an archive.

[Oshy]

For example sake, let's say a blade is valued at $2k. I think you will find that if you spend $800 shipping a blade to Japan for NBTHK shinsa and obtaining hozan, it wouldn't typically increase the value dollar for dollar unless a favorable finding is uncovered in the process. Same goes for polishing. So you will typically save money buying a papered / polished blade.