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Bilobe - Sell high


Peter Bleed

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Dear Friends,

I am trying to use my imposed isolation to present graphic evidence that will convince the sword world that MANY of what used to be called Namban tsubas were Asian (and probably Japanese) copies of European Smallsword guards. Do these look "European" to you?

Peter

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Dear Peter,

 

Can I play Devil's Advocate?  As you probably know, the Japanese copied and incorporated Western influences into many of their arts: lacquer, painting, prints, ceramics, etc.  In each case, they inevitably adopted and executed the Western aspects with very Japanese techniques - always exacting and precise.  Most of the "namban grouping" of tsuba do not seem very exacting or precise, and they do not appear to incorporate Western influences in a manner that the other Japanese arts did.  Furthermore, all of the non-namban tsuba that incorporate Western influences that I have seen, exhibit the exacting and precise techniques and balance that we usually expect to see in tsuba.  Those thoughts make me believe that while they may have been made in Asia, most of the "namban" tsuba were not made in Japan.  What are your thoughts on that?

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Peter 

 

I have the opinion that some of the guards you displayed are repurposed "European" pieces, those that have a re-cut tang hole (not nakago-ana) would never have been made with a square section cut-through if made in Asia / Japan for domestic purposes why would they? The sword blade tangs of Asian swords were not thin square cross-section like those of Rapiers and Foils from Europe. Is it reasonable that these tang holes would be put in just for show, when if mounted there is no way this could be seen? It is perhaps more reasonable to assume that if they were indeed made in Asia or Japan they were intended as guards for European weapons not Japanese at all. What we see are leftovers altered for Asian and Japanese swords. I believe we have been looking in the wrong direction at a lot of 'namban' guards. 

 

As an after thought can anyone tell me if 'namban' or 'nanban' is the correct spelling? You can Google both and get just about the same results. It may well be a time to call them what they really are - Asian export guards.

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one is occidentally made second picture bottom right, I think many are southeast asia made.
I think these are referred as "auriculus" tsuba, based from dutch swords.
I try to find a original sword guard like this for collection, I mean, a genuine european one.
I would get all the modified items tsuba versions, so southeast asian (already have) european, kagami,kutsuwa and whatever else can be modified to become a tsuba.
You can discuss about them one the facebook page "southeast asian sword guards" he will like them.
 

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Thank you all for interesting reactions. I'm gathering my own thoughts and reactions.

But to keep the conversation going, what do you think of this? I'm pretty sure that this was "Made in Europe" and rather harshly modified in Japan. Right?

Peter

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Wrong-sprong! It turns out that lots of bilobed tsuba were rotated 90 degrees - as if folks in Japan liked the design but didn't quite get the "biloded" design.

This is an NBTHK papered "Nanban tsuba".

It has lobes at top and bottom, and instead of Oni or other ogres it has round eyed characters with a curly hair and big long mustachios.

Peter

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Thank you to those who have honored me by looking at this stuff. My basic goal is trying to present evidence that would show the "European" roots of these sword fitting designs. I am sure that most of these thing fittings were made in Japan but I think they were inspired/copied after European designs. I strongly suspect that most of these were not direct copies, but rather that they were copies of designs that had entered Japanese production.

Now I am well aware that many people say that these things were made somewhere other than either Europe of Japan - China, Vietnam, or Sri Lanka are often cited. But I just don't see a lot of evidence linking these fittings to those areas.

 

Here are some pictures of "European" swords with guards that look to me like the sort of things that could have inspired production of "Nanban" guards.

P

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Okay. Now please look at these two "Namban" tsuba. To me they do not look like the work seen on European swords, but the over all designs strike me as similar to European fittings.

Look at the overall outline, the placement of grotesque faces, and the vine-filled panels. They also have something like a cupped appearance.

P

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Peter

 

There is a real similarity with your example Italian [plate XVIII] and the thickened edges of the first new example. The finish of the edge is a bit plain though, when you consider the detail on both faces. And of course there is no cupping of the plate that I can see but as most Japanese cupped tsuba were mounted in an opposite direction to European guards - perhaps as a way of keeping dust out of the saya - pierced guards would let dust in, so why cup them anyway?

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What a great topic Peter, thank you for bringing it up. I’ve always been fascinated with the use of Western motifs in Japanese Art and, in the case of the current topic, actually repurposing. I found this image sorry if its been posted already or alluded to but the fact that nudes being used and rendering in this way leaves no doubt in my mind that this went on. post-170-0-76106200-1586098925_thumb.png

 

 

 

Doug

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Gentle Ffolke, I offer the attached tsuba for comment and discussion.  It is a "sleeper" never before seen and found in an old deceased estate collection.  It was mounted on an Edo period handachi of very mediocre quality, yet an "honest" sword in good condition.  The koshirae was fine with some interesting features, however the blade is signed yamashiro kuni nishijin ju umetada myoju (山城國西陣住埋忠明壽)and is so blatantly gimei that I'll pass over it immediately...

 

The tsuba, however, to my eye stands head and shoulders over the rest of the sword for interest.  Although clearly Namban I believe, I have no idea of the meaning of any of the figures, neither the creature portrayed top and bottom nor what is going on in the bi-lobed areas, except to say that in the latter a dragon's head can be seen.  These photos of the tsuba are "as found" taken off the sword in the owner's presence.  It could certainly need a gentle clean.

 

EDIT:  I have been gazing at the photos and the "figures" at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock seem to be a tama in a dragon's claw.  A most unusual perspective???

 

Best regards,

BaZZa,.

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Hi BaZZa, I see a total of 8 dragons, and instead of holding the tama in their claws, I see two dragon heads coming together on each side (total of 4 dragon heads) and holding a tama (one on each side at 3 & 9 o'clock) in their mouths.  Interestingly, the 4 dragons on the interior are all oriented the same way (up) instead of the lower two being upside down as is typical on these configurations.

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Dear BAZ.

Thank you for sharing this tsuba. I have a couple of these and showed them in the third of my initial postings. Thanks for showing more. I am sure that these were like tweed sport coats or blue oxford cloth shirts. That is they were just everyday wear for guys that needed to carry a sword - even a fake Umetada.

And given where my descendants still live, let me close by saying....

Flush your toilets, Werribee needs the water!

All the Best

Peter

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Dear Peter,

 

BaZZa's tsuba is almost identical to one of yours implying some kind of molding was used to make both of them (instead of being chiseled and filed to a similar model).  Are they sand cast? Some of the small areas where they are different appear to be places where a sand casting might have failed or caused differences.  Perhaps the method of manufacture will assist you in determining the true country of origin.

 

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Peter 

 

I have the opinion that some of the guards you displayed are repurposed "European" pieces, those that have a re-cut tang hole (not nakago-ana) would never have been made with a square section cut-through if made in Asia / Japan for domestic purposes why would they? The sword blade tangs of Asian swords were not thin square cross-section like those of Rapiers and Foils from Europe. Is it reasonable that these tang holes would be put in just for show, when if mounted there is no way this could be seen? It is perhaps more reasonable to assume that if they were indeed made in Asia or Japan they were intended as guards for European weapons not Japanese at all. What we see are leftovers altered for Asian and Japanese swords. I believe we have been looking in the wrong direction at a lot of 'namban' guards. 

 

As an after thought can anyone tell me if 'namban' or 'nanban' is the correct spelling? You can Google both and get just about the same results. It may well be a time to call them what they really are - Asian export guards.

 

They are definitely similar to 17th century European works, but my guess is there are too many small differences. They are flatter, uniformly patinated to black (as Namban Japanese works tend to), with deep cuts which go through the entire object, rather than at least big portion of the lines formed by more shallow engraving. If those were European, one would indeed expect to see more "unquestionably European" guards, but 99% of the type are all "sort of", and are too similar to one another rather than to any random selection of period European works.

Were there loads of such items in Indochina or China or anywhere else on the Continent, the continental theory would have been an interesting alternative.

 

Kirill R.

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Hi Peter,

 

Unfortunately I don't own it. It was on a Niten koshirae I should have bought but did not. Including a few more images that I saved (note they put the tsuba on backwards!)

 

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I do have this tsuba signed Masa Kata (Probably Satsuma, about 1800). This is on a later Niten koshirae, the blade is dated 1781.

 

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The one you posted looks European influenced as well. Is it brass?

 

Tim

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last reply is interesting I was thinking the same, the "musashi" style tsuba are european influence for me.
I don't know why they calll these "musashi" maybe because it's the name used for modern iaito tsuba.
I made that one for a kenshin sword replica project, the nakago ana is reversed as the sword is reversed in the movie.

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The original movie prop is a standart musashi tsuba with some resin fillin to reduce the holes size, probably for safety reasons.

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last reply is interesting I was thinking the same, the "musashi" style tsuba are european influence for me.

I don't know why they calll these "musashi" maybe because it's the name used for modern iaito tsuba.

I have always known the Musashi tsuba as namako - sea slug, or sea cucumber, and totally Musashi's design in his time.  This  blog bears particularly and germanely on this thread as it also addresses the fish and gourd tsuba above as a Musashi design:

 

http://ichijoji.blogspot.com/2011/01/musashi-tsuba-and-koshirae.html

 

BaZZa

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The last few postings have pointed a simple, highly abstracted style of bilobe tsubas that I have seen but never felt I needed. They seem a long way from "Namban" but they truly do feel like an evolution of the bilobe form.

Is this a great hobby or what?

Peter

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