Are there any contemporary smiths using shin watetsu?

[piryohae3]

I saw this article by Paul Martin where a different group is also making tamahagane via tatara but unlike the NBTHK they're blending it with modern science.

 

http://Japan-forward.com/tatara-watetsu-Japanese-town-revives-traditional-steel-production/

 

Anyone know if any modern smiths are using this steel to make swords?

[mas4t0]

My understanding is that the 'modern science' is simply some mechanisation of the process in order to reduce the amount of manual labour involved.

 

I wouldn't expect the steel to be any different metallurgically, and the aim here seems to be only to increase supply and make the material more readily available.

 

I don't quite understand what you are hoping to achieve; if you can elaborate, it might enable some more precise responses.

 

Just for completeness, if you're looking for a Japanese (style) sword made taking advantage of modern heat treat and metallurgy then you'd be best served looking at non-nihonto made by smiths outside of Japan.

[16k]

... or a Mantetsu.

 

But I don’t think it is James’ purpose, he’s only documenting and trying to understand as much as he can about nihonto if I refer myself to every questions he’s asked so far. 
 

And I think he’s doing it well! Kudos for taking this approach rather than doing what most of us have done and newbies still do today: buying without knowing enough.

[Ken-Hawaii]

If they are starting with satetsu, then almost by definition, the result will be tamahagane, whether or not they are using modern techniques. I think the kudos belong with NBTHK for making it the old, tried-&-true way.

[ROKUJURO]

James,

there are indeed some Japanese swordsmiths who produce their own TAMAHAGANE in a modern form of TATARA furnace with electric blowers instead of FUIGO.

See on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaDFPrahAhk or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw1FC8bsiCI or  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng47iSMPAEU

[piryohae3]

... or a Mantetsu.

 

But I don’t think it is James’ purpose, he’s only documenting and trying to understand as much as he can about nihonto if I refer myself to every questions he’s asked so far. 

 

And I think he’s doing it well! Kudos for taking this approach rather than doing what most of us have done and newbies still do today: buying without knowing enough.

 

Thanks for the kudos! Yes I've read in a few books that now is an exciting time for innovation in sword making. I know that some smiths make their own oroshigane as Jean C said. I have a book that has interviews with different smiths and some use exclusively tamahagane from the NBTHK tatara, others blend it with their own, and others use their own entirely so I was wondering maybe this shin watetsu will create different results because of more precise temperature control, different type of satetsu used, etc.

 

For example Akihira Kawasaki. He uses his own oroshigane only and his swords have incredible hada. I wonder how much of that is from his technique or from the material. I've seen lots of pics of swords by contemporary smiths, most whose hada I think are quite frankly bland. I'm pretty sure most use NBTHK tamahagane. 

 

[ROKUJURO]

James,

OROSHIGANE is not the same as TAMAHAGANE. In an ideal world, using scrap iron from old (pre-industrial) sources, it would indeed be technically the same, but it is possible to mix some modern steel into the OROSHIGANE iron. But then the risk is that the resulting iron material will change its properties and technical requirements so you cannot handle and control it in the traditional way. Therefore the Japanese swordsmits take great care to only choose ancient steel for their production.

Technically, iron is iron wherever you produce it with similar methods. Ores are mostly iron oxides, and the direct reduction process in a TATARA or in a Celtic bloomery kiln always produces relatively pure iron without alloying element with the exception of carbon. Impurities are always present, and there may be a big difference in the forging process between iron working cultures. The Japanese swordsmith seems to use the finest craft and care imaginable in the production of his blades the reputation of which is justified.

Features like HADA or HAMON are merely produced by the working technique of the smith and not by the material used.  

[piryohae3]

 

Features like HADA or HAMON are merely produced by the working technique of the smith and not by the material used.  

 

 

I'm not so sure. I read in some books about post WW2 and modern smiths and a good number of them seem to think that material is key to making koto-like swords in addition to techniques lost to time. There was mention both in the books and on NMB about how tamahagane production was centralized and is a reason why the steel in swords looked the same despite being made in different provinces because they're not using local materials so they don't have their unique characteristics like they used to.

 

Maybe the tamahagane smiths use today is too pure. In one of my books togishi Sasaki Takushi remarked that koto steel is less pure than what's being used today so those impurities appear as complex activity in the steel.

[Jamie]

Personally I think that techniques, and material had to do with hamon and hada. And I’d bet that If analyzed we’d find some differences in metal composition too. Probably not greatly varying, but some. Echizen swords are dark - they look black against (if set beside) a Shinto sword.

People made ok copies of norishige right and we know the used different steels to achieve that effect, but no one after him that tried did it as well as he did. Why not?

[ROKUJURO]

James, Jamie,

the whole matter is not so much a question of belief and assumption, but of metallurgy. Analyses of TAMAHAGANE and SATETSU have been made so there is a base of knowledge about the metal. 'Dark' or 'bright' steel is achieved with different polishing techniques.

What we don't know and what is difficult to detect is the exact way the steel was treated by the old masters. You have to imagine that the art of sword making was secret and the craft was passed down from the master to the DESHI - no visitors allowed, no books were written!

 think we can safely say that flawless steel was not the result of the material chosen but of the competence of the craftsman. In this regard, it is important to imagine that 'impure' TAMAHAGANE did not necessarily lead to impure steel! A good part of the forging was needed to refine the steel.

Of course we do not know the composition of the clay slurry that was used as a flux in early stages of forge-welding the billets, and we do not know precisely the composition of the rice-straw ash that was used adiitionally, but the very small amounts of elements that were introduced into the steel via these techniques had considerably less influence on the properties of it than the careful fire-welding and forging. If there is a difference in KOTO blades vs. later ones as far as the purity and homogeneity of the steel in swords are concerned, this has mainly to do with the techniques and extreme care that was executed in the production process.

Imagine that in olden times, the expenditure of time was no factor in crafts, it was only the results that counted!  Items were sold by the piece, not by the working time! So it is understandable that great care and a lot of time went into the production of high class weapons.