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Re seppas, I have a problem with them. Water lines under the Kiku mon travel in the wrong direction. Check out real kjkusui mon and direction of "S" shape.  

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Well spotted Neil.  :thumbsup:

 

Did someone make up a punch without reversing the image?

 

Also in image three and four, the Nakago ana on the seppa is too big it exceeds the habaki (unless they have them in the wrong order)

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and they dont fit the blade correctly, 

 

note the very clean or cleaned nakago but the rather deep pit in the blade

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If you are going to spend big bucks on a sword like a Minatogawa, you better know your stuff. The devil is very much in the detail. I have two polished and a papered Masanao swords to compare. I would like to add a third, but not this one. Enough said. Two anomalies out of about 10, have now been listed here already, keep looking.  

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Spot on Neil, just like how WW2 German high end items are so faked you have to step up to only buy from trusted dealers. High end Shrine or other special swords are now an extremely expensive minefield for the uninitiated. For these swords I would tend to buy papered examples just to have extra confirmation.

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The mei looks very similar, if not identical, to a papered one I’ve seen on the net, and the yasurime job too.  But the kiku mon has something off, as if carved with an insecure hand. 

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Mario, the hand carving of the kikusui mon should be flowing continuous lines. Not semicircular punch marks to finish the curves, or tops of the kiku flowers on nakago. The mon on the habaki, however looks ok. On the habaki you see how everything flows. Look at nakago very closely. 

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Remember the flashy Yasukuni blade i showed. I think there was initials on it too. Maybe a ploy make us think by bring back vets? If pix still up compare the two?

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Not defending this blade, but on the kikusui, we discovered quite a variation in the mon on this discussion: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27750-minatogawa-shrine-swords/page-2?hl=kikusui,

so I'm not bothered by the one on this blade.

 

I am bothered by the seppa mon, though. Not only are the rivers flowing in the oposite direction, the mon are upside-down when holding the blade in-hand.

 

I've asked for mei/gimei opinions on the Translation Assistance page. I put a bid down on it before I heard this talk and can't remove it. If you guys are right, hopefully someone will outbid me!

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All,

 

this came from a old collection and have been setting in storge for 12 years after the passing and 30 years of collecting , the reciept that was attached this sword was bought in 1972 I do not believe alot of faking was going on then for what these sold for then.

 

The reason it was posted on the site was to show collectors here a great sword, NEIL …...NOT EVERYTHING IS A SCAM !!!

I will 100 percent guarantee this sword will paper if sent to the NBTHK or I will refund the papers cost with sword price if returned in the same condition.

 

 

Fred 

              

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Fred, no where have I used the words fake or scam, I was very careful not to, but highlighted concerns and anomalies, of which other contributors also picked up when pointed out... 

I didn't realise you were the seller, as you originally posted it in the military section for comment. And it got comments. 

So being a forum for show and tell, and not for sale, it was fair game to discuss and comment. And happens I have a couple to compare it to.

If you had originally posted it in the for sale section, I would not comment. 

Your offer to guarantee it should give buyers the confidence to bid. Good luck with the sale. 

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yes I agree I did post for comments and also did post in the for sale section at the same time 

 

I ask though if a comment is made please also post the reason with NBTHK examples for your comments of concern for education not just "well I think" as we all have them but if not proven they are just fiction comments not educational notes for all to be better and smarter which the reason for this site as I understand it

 

please post your examples so we may see others to study the mei

 

Fred        

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Fred, Food for thought. I have no interest in the sword, but you seem upset and became defensive that potentially negative points have been observed regarding this sword.  As this was posted in the “discussion” section, and you admit to seeking comments, then it is open for discussion, observation or opinion, positive and negative without restriction.

 

While it would be beneficial as well as educational, there is no criteria stating that comments related to personal observations must be accompanied by any proof, NBTHK examples or others.

 

You are correct in that none of the comments/discussion are proof of anything, any more than your guarantee, yet that doesn’t make them fictional.  They are only comments being discussed by interested, educated collectors.

 

Opposed to trying to limit or control what is being said or discussed, perhaps it would help if you were to provide some NBTHK examples which would support the sword you are selling.  This would also be more educational for NMB members.

 

I think there is a real interest in your sword and supporting evidence would benefit you more than an attempt to restrict what others have to say.

 

Again, I have no dog in the fight, and my only goal is to make an objective observation for the good of this thread and the sale of your sword.

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Bruce, you can cancel your bid on EBAY, call in and they'll walk you through the solution. Peace.Tom D.

Thank Tom. I know it is done, as I've seen live bidding that dropped as the bidding progressed. Like I've said on the Auctions forum, I'll stick with my bid. There's plenty to like about this kai, and the odd seppa doesn't scare me off enough to quit on it.

 

I appreciate Ed's comments. The beauty of NMB is that it is, among other things, a place where we all learn together. That kind of learning, especially when we are studying something from the past with very little factual documentation, comes with a challenge of ideas. We look at evidence and toss around our thoughts on what it means. Since we don't have the people who made them, here, alive to talk to, we mostly speculate and hypothesize.

 

Thin skins get thicker, or they walk. The ones who stick around learn to love and appreciate our brothers in the hobby, even when they are wrong (pretty sure I never have been! HA!). But in the end, we all learn and are better for it.

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Ed I only say things here in "……." in for points of comment and ZERO against you..... when you allow misinformation or made up information and you have nothing good that comes from this...…  my points below    

 

 

Fred, Food for thought. I have no interest in the sword, but you seem upset and became defensive that potentially negative points have been observed regarding this sword.  As this was posted in the “discussion” section, and you admit to seeking comments, then it is open for discussion, observation or opinion, positive and negative without restriction.

 

While it would be beneficial as well as educational, there is no criteria stating that comments related to personal observations must be accompanied by any proof, NBTHK examples or others. " Ed I am sorry but i know not think all your swords online on your website are fake and reproductions" ........ahhh you just got mad !!! of course you did and this comment is 100% wrong and nothing more then misinformation so you may want to ???    

 

You are correct in that none of the comments/discussion are proof of anything, any more than your guarantee, "BUT I MADE ONE, no one else did " yet that doesn’t make them fictional.  They are only comments being discussed by interested, educated " sometime I question this" collectors. 

 

Opposed to trying to limit or control what is being said or discussed, perhaps it would help if you were to provide some NBTHK examples which would support the sword you are selling.  This would also be more educational for NMB members."guilty until you can prove your innocensence..maybe let the desenters prove.....again my comment about your fake swords....again not true... but to point "

 

I think there is a real interest in your sword and supporting evidence would benefit you more than an attempt to restrict what others have to say.

 

Again, I have no dog in the fight, and my only goal is to make an objective observation for the good of this thread and the sale of your sword.

 

Ed I owe you a beer !!

 

Fred

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I out bid Bruce, just to make it easy on him....  i doubt i will win but will be happy of i do.   Nice sword Fred

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I out bid Bruce, just to make it easy on him....  i doubt i will win but will be happy of i do.   Nice sword Fred

I expected someone would, my max-bid was well below market value. I was just hoping to buy it and sell it to someone else like you! Ha!

 

My collection is pretty much done and I'm starting to toy with buying and selling to continue my hobby. But I'm new at that and not really good at it.

 

I know you'll enjoy the kai, Mark!

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Ed I am sorry but i know not think all your swords online on your website are fake and reproductions" ........ahhh you just got mad !!! of course you did

 

Fred, I understand your point here, as it is human nature to become upset or defensive when someone makes a negative comment about you or in this case your sword.

 

But no, that kind of talk doesn't make me mad, it is just part of dealing with the public.  Probably due to the fact that I have been told that so many times  ;-) . I have learned to either ignore it or deal with it in a rational manner. Ex: Read the Dotanuki thread, my sword was trashed, bashed and smashed by naysayers. It was gimei, had broken tip, hagire, you name it.  In the end, it papered and is now in the possession of an owner who is thrilled with it. He stated: "It’s a very beautiful sword and I don’t understand the previous fuss".

 

When you offer anything to the public, especially in a venue which encourages comments and opinions, there will always be different views.  Views which almost certainly will spark debate, argument, and anger.  Again, human emotions which can rarely be altered or prevented.

 

It was my intention to point out that negative comments are better ignored or responded to with rationale and/or evidence.

 

I agree that offering your guarantee on the sword passing shinsa should eliminate any hesitancy on the part of potential buyers and perhaps offset the downside of any negative comments.

 

Good luck.

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All,

 

this came from a old collection and have been setting in storge for 12 years after the passing and 30 years of collecting , the reciept that was attached this sword was bought in 1972 I do not believe alot of faking was going on then for what these sold for then.

 

The reason it was posted on the site was to show collectors here a great sword, NEIL …...NOT EVERYTHING IS A SCAM !!!

I will 100 percent guarantee this sword will paper if sent to the NBTHK or I will refund the papers cost with sword price if returned in the same condition.

 

 

Fred

Not saying this sword is a fake but there was actually quite a bit of forgery and fraud in the early 1970s dealing with Nihonto and Origami in Japan.

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Sorry to everyone on the site,

 

I cant take it ...................why do people think they have to say stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, facts people facts , who gives a crap about here say, maybes, could be, well I am not for sure , I have no clue what I am talking about BUUUUUT...... here is my guess to something i know nothing about.....again please give me examples of faking a $650.00 gun show sword ...yes that was the price in the 1970.

 

Faking a great Juyo Bizen blade for 35K yes !! hell it still happens today  

 

Cant we take this truly outstanding and impressive educational group of collectors up a few notches so everyone here can learn and move forward in....wait here is the big word…..".knowledge"       

 

ok I am done thank you to all for my rant  

 

Thank you

 

Fred 

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