Ubu nihonto need help with identification

[Utopianarian]

Hello, I have a katana which I have had a difficult time identifying. Appears to have mostly masame hada with openings in some of the graining. Nagasa 70cm Motohaba 3 cm sakihaba 2cm Kasane .8cm Length of kissaki 3.2cm length of nagasa 19.05cm. Nakago appears to have dark well established patina and is ubu and mumei. Yusurime katte sagari. Gentle oroshi Iori Mune. Hamon Suguha with some activity in it. Boshi from what I can observe may be Hakikake. My best guess it may be a school of the Yamato tradition but unsure of age. Maybe Muromachi.

[Utopianarian]

More pics

[Ray Singer]

Looking at the shape of the nakago, the overall sugata of the sword and the coarse forging throughout I would consider the possibility that this is a Sue-Bizen kazuuchi-mono (late Muromachi).

[Utopianarian]

Additional pics

[Utopianarian]

Thank you Raymond

[O-Midare]

Rays assessment would be my uneducated opinion as well.

[Utopianarian]

Yes I agree it appears to be one of the mass produced war swords during the Sengoku period. Rays assessment I think is correct. When I acquired this sword it was fitted with WW2 Gunto fittings with Family Mon

[PNSSHOGUN]

Have to agree with Ray as well, classic mass produced blade. These are still very interesting, especially in good Shin Gunto mounts with Mon.

[Utopianarian]

Yes definitely fascinating. So interesting that this sword had a more utilitarian use to actually be used in war versus a ceremonial sword. Here is a pic of the family mon on the gunto fittings. Added history that makes this even more interesting

[uwe]

Mon is called “Naka-wa no uchi ni ken-katabami” (admittedly a bit complicated).
Possibilities: “Sakai”, “Nishio”, “Hayakawa”, “Hosoi”, etc......

[16k]

Okay, once more in serious need of being educated here!

 

I've looked at that blade and tried to kantei it came to very inconclusive conclusions!  Since i know you guys are right and I am wrong, would you please correct me what I got wrong, please?

 

So, here was my train of thoughts:

 

We have a blade with a nagasa of 70 cm, with clear tapering towards the point (1cm less!). The nakago is dark with two mekugi ana, one clearly drilled and the older one probably drilled too. this would rather point me towards shinto although i agree that the sori looks more muromachi. The nakago isn't that short for a muromachi piece though. Hada looks very rough with lots of forging defects Contrary to George, I think it's not masame hada but itame. The masame seems especially concentrated in the shinogi ji area, another, but not exclusive, trait of shinto swordsmithing. The hamon seems frosty, not too well defined suguha but this conclusion could be due to the pictures or bad polishing. I know bizen smiths sometimes used suguha, but it's not exactly why they are known for. Conclusion, well I can't seem to be able to conclude anything!

 

Bizen production was nearly if not all anihilated in 1590 with the great flood, so if this is a Bizen sword, it had to be produced before that. The only Kazuu Uchi Mono I've ever seen were swords sold on Aoi art and they looked like quite good swords, signed Bishu Osafune and showing some Bizen characteristics I'm not finding here.

 

So, how do you come to that conclusion? What are the signs to look for?

 

Is it just: Bad forging+Muromachi sugata=Bizen=kazuu uchi mono?

 

It cannot be that simple! what am I not seeing there?

 

Thanks in advance for the kantei lesson!

[Utopianarian]

One hole on the nakago is punched the other looks drilled obviously at a later time prob during Ww2.

[Utopianarian]

Another pic

[Bazza]

VERY interesting habaki.  Can we please have some good, closeup pics if it??  I just LURV unusual, well-made habaki.

 

BaZZa.

[Utopianarian]

Additional pics

[Utopianarian]

Habaki close up pic

[Austus]

George, your photoghraphic skills are far better than any that I aspire to.

[Utopianarian]

Thank you Austus. Many here on the board are much better obtaining pictures/ lighting etc.. there is even a thread I believe created here by a member on this subject. Nihonto photography is an art onto itself. Thank you for your comment but I am very much an amateur here trying to learn.

[Utopianarian]

Regarding Hada: Blades with masame hada often have some linear so-called "masaware" Which in some cases are acceptable and a trade mark and aren’t seen as a forging fault or flaw. There are some areas of Itame hada mixed in this blade but Generally coarse running masame hada.