Obscured / Rusted Mei - How to Read?

[tbonesullivan]

I guess this is a stage everyone gets to: when you end up with a tang is like this. I can somewhat make out the Mei, but the date is pretty much obliterated.

 

Is there any way to really get these back? The tang has some pretty significant rust scaling. I'm not doing anything to it, but at least being able to get a rubbing or something might be nice. I'm just worried that the tang condition will prevent any type of accurate rubbing.

[Ray Singer]

David can we see a clear photo of the entire mei, including the top which is being cut off presently?

 

Please also try an oshigata.  The mei is cut deeply enough that this may be easily readable with an oshigata (rubbing of the nakago).

[b.hennick]

You might try putting baby powder on the tang and removing the excess. That should highlight the chisel strokes. 

[Ray Singer]

FWIW, I am fairly sure that the mei ends in 勝 (Katsu).

 

Nakago has a Shinto Mino feeling. Also, the back that it has an inscription on the reverse which is not a date could also help to identify the smith. Some like Shitahara (15 fold method), Echizen (Echizen ju), etc have standard, supporting inscriptions opposite to the mei.

[PNSSHOGUN]

+1 to baby powder to at least get some of the characters readable.

[ROKUJURO]

David,

there is a special x-ray method which makes even filed-out numbers in handguns readable. Please ask your personal FBI agent. 

[Yoshimichi]

Dear David:

 

I have known people who have used one other method: a smoke oshigata, with success with faint or difficult to read kanji. You want to make sure you get instruction from the other members on how to best do a smoke oshigata before trying it the first time. The process I have seen used involves laying the sword blade flat on a table or surface, with the tang (kanji side down) hanging off the table. Obviously, the blade has to be secured or held down on the surface, so as not to drop or flip up the blade in the process. Then, by using a lit candle held underneath the tang (at least a couple of inches away), you let the candle smoke soot rise up to the tang, sufficient enough to fill the kanji strokes with smoke soot.You then use 2" wide clear plastic tape to lift the soot impression of the kanji off of the tang. 

 

However, I would not use this method with a decent sword, without the help or assistance of someone who has performed the method before, and without trying everything else mentioned above before resorting to a smoke oshigata. Better yet, you would be well served if you can have an experienced sword person look at the sword in hand, like Raymond Singer or Mike Yamazaki, if possible. I am sure some members might have reservations about using a smoke oshigata, but it can be useful in the appropriate situation. 

 

Regards

Bill E. Sheehan (Yoshimichi) 

[Brian]

David,

 

there is a special x-ray method which makes even filed-out numbers in handguns readable. Please ask your personal FBI agent. 

Wouldn't work on swords. Requires the metal to be punched, and displaced downwards, whereas mei are carved. Also, the various methods are a bit destructive, involving either acid or a magnetic  test that leads to a horrible white residue.  There may be other methods, but none would be very effective on a sword without any harm.

[Lance]

Something similar to  the smoke method Yoshimichii mentioned above, use a soft pencil  at shallow angle and lightly rub over entire nakago, then apply the clear 2 inch tape over it, lightly rub, remove and place on white paper. After you're done you can just wipe off residue with choji oil.  

 

Regards,

Lance   

[ROKUJURO]

Brian,

as far as I have seen, read, or practised, MEI in sword NAKAGO are punched in a downward motion. No metal is removed as in soft metal carving on TSUBA. It is true that I don't know much about the mentioned x-ray method, but it was described as non-destructive.

One important point may be the force applied to the steel of the workpiece in inscribing a registration number resp. a MEI. This might be different in the two methods. 

Generally, I admit that this method will probably be the last in the research of a MEI, as others might be less expensive and more promising.

[uwe]

At first, I would try obliquely light (use different angles). It works in most cases.....and don’t do any harm...

(mostly ).

[tbonesullivan]

I tried for some better light, and managed to get a little bit clearer. There is some white substance in areas, so most likely I am not the first who has tried to visualize the me.  I did not find anything on the spine of the tang.  I will probably try some rubbings once I get the proper stuff.

[tbonesullivan]

Here's the machi area, and also the top of the fuchi, which has quite a bit of writing on it.  Would they have transferred information to the Fuchi if it could not be read on the tang anymore? It definitely has a date on it. I haven't gotten a chance to pull up my date charts to see which era it is marked.

[Ray Singer]

勢州桑名住藤原勝吉 - Seishu Kuwana ju Fujiwara Katsuyoshi

 

於播磨姫路作是 - Oite Harima Himeji saku kore (kore o tsukuru?)

[Ray Singer]

Compare with this example.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/O87604_S2815_PUP.htm

 

[SteveM]

Well done.     

 

Note it should be 於播州 (Oite Banshū) with the 州 on this one being the same version as the one that Uwe and I mentioned in a thread yesterday. I guess it is more common than I thought. 

 

Edit: I suppose it could also possibly be 勝永 or 勝重...all from the same group of smiths.

[SteveM]

And just to finish this off: 

The fuchi is signed 

政随行齢六十又六

 

Shōzui (Masayuki) gyōnen 66

 

It refers to the fuchi maker, Shōzui, who made this item at 66 years old. 

[Yoshimichi]

Well done, Raymond and Steven. Impressive!

 

Regards

Bill E. Sheehan (Yoshimichi) 

[tbonesullivan]

Oh wow. I never imagined that just from the pictures it could be potentially identified. I was definitely wrong about the opposite side having to be a date. Thanks so much!

 

I may still try getting a rubbing, as it's a skill i'd definitely like to work on, not just for sword tangs. I sometimes have to deal with totally rusted military items, like antique gun barrels, which often may have traces of markings, but they are almost impossible to read.