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Warning with these scammers

Teengu

By Teengu
in General Nihonto Related Discussion

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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 Hello to all the members of the forum, it's a pleasure to greet you. Unfortunately, I feel it's in circumstances like these. I want to warn about the practices that are being carried out and that seem dangerous to all the people that are starting, therefore, I would like to record so that, among all, as much as possible, we try to expose what for me it's being cheeky scam.

 
Browsing the Internet, I found this website, where most of the pieces shown are reproductions of very low quality, but that are marketed as genuine and even museum quality. I must clarify that some of the pieces are Japanese, but gimei and of poor quality. Concerning Koshirae, traditional methods aren't used, they don't apply urushi, makie or other techniques that they claim to use, being the worst quality, execution and worst finishes. The pieces used for the kodogu some are usually authentic but also of very low quality, as well as the tsukas and sayas, which, due to their disproportionate shape, are intuited to be reused from very possibly Chinese pieces.
 
The worrying thing about all this is that the fake material is passed as genuine.
 
Another aberration that I have managed to discover is the so-called "master" Togishi who polishes his swords and it seems that he is also a forge apprentice, and that, as we can see in the following examples, they are trying to simulate original and Japanese works
 
Example of the website where it has been marketed;
Add kikumon with what intention?
 
 
Example of the togishi instagram where he loads their "jobs"
 
 
I would like to know what you think about all this
 
P.D In the attached pictures, we can see a horribly fake signature of Tanba No Kami Yoshimichi
 
Thanks to all
 
Miike

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Brian

Brian

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Very disturbing...new to me. Not coming out of China, newcommers might just think they are getting a high end sword.
Those daisho swords are horrible, and not sure if they have stamped in horimono or badly carved. Terrible work, not even sure the swords are real.
Many/most of the items on the sold page are real, if not high quality. So how on earth does that daisho pass muster?
Not sure this is a deliberate scam, or he doesn't know better. Does he actually have anything for sale?

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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Thanks for your input, Miike, but have you browsed the NMB Web-site in any detail? There are numerous examples of what you are showing, & discussions of gimei & fake blades are common. Welcome to the forum.

Hi Ken, thanks for your reply and the welcome. Before I posted this , I looked for in the forum with the words of Katanacenter and I don't found anything, sorry If I'm talking about something that has already been talked about, but, I think it should be disclosed as much as possible, since they continue with the same practices and scamming people, such as fellow Abaris.

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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Very disturbing...new to me. Not coming out of China, newcommers might just think they are getting a high end sword.

Those daisho swords are horrible, and not sure if they have stamped in horimono or badly carved. Terrible work, not even sure the swords are real.

Many/most of the items on the sold page are real, if not high quality. So how on earth does that daisho pass muster?

Not sure this is a deliberate scam, or he doesn't know better. Does he actually have anything for sale?

 

Hi Brian, thanks for your reply. they know perfectly what they are selling. They started selling original pieces although of low quality, and their evolution has been to introduce this type of garbage. They attribute these pieces, as historical pieces and with certificates, certificates of course manipulated. You just have to take a look at the web so you can see the crime that is being committed. I personally contacted them to know the price at which they were selling their pieces and I know that parts are being sold at authentic prices. I contacted to know the price of a sword that was already sold, and these were the links they sent me as other options, judge for yourselves.

 

I can't post the links, so I made some screenshots.

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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I know some collectors which had polished their swords by pierre luigi ponzio and were satisfied with the work. Some told me he learned in italy by a well known polisher.

 

 

I know some collectors which had polished their swords by pierre luigi ponzio and were satisfied with the work. Some told me he learned in italy by a well known polisher.

My complaint is that swords are being sold that come out of its forge, like that daisho with kikumon, and through that page they are being sold as originals. I don't know if it's his intention, but the reality is that from Katanacenter are asking for a lot of money for those swords that are obviously not authentic.

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Abaris Explorer

Abaris

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Are these pictures from the same polisher? I think yes because of the instagram pictures. Thia person was trying to sell this for 3000€ and told me he was going to make a shirasaya for it and was restoring the habaki with some gold.

 

He told me he was a well known and respected polisher, but he wrote spanish with some italian words. I guess he's the same person, but I'm not sure.

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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I want to make it clear that I don't know if the togishi / kaji knows what they are doing with their pieces, but that they are offering them from katanacenter as originals in qualities and prices is a fact. I've always contacted with katanacenter , it was

Looking in Instagram I came across that daisho that was sold in katanacenter and tied ends.

I don't know if katana center buys their katanas and they take care of giving them those descriptions, I really don't know.

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Geraint Grand Master

Geraint

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Dear Miike and Carlos.

 

Please add your names to your posts so that we know who we are speaking with.  You can do it automatically from your profile.

 

Katanacentre has been around for some time, offering on Ebay though a lot of pieces looked to have been messed with.  He had some genuine stuff though all the interesting things were marked as sold.  These latest pieces are horrible and the descriptions can only be described as deliberately deceptive. As always knowledge is the best protection.  

 

Carlos, the sword you show is now of no interest to you I take it?  For what it is worth it looks like a Chinese made sword with the spurious certificates that are now becoming common.

 

All the best.

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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Are these pictures from the same polisher? I think yes because of the instagram pictures. Thia person was trying to sell this for 3000€ and told me he was going to make a shirasaya for it and was restoring the habaki with some gold.

 

He told me he was a well known and respected polisher, but he wrote spanish with some italian words. I guess he's the same person, but I'm not sure.

Yes, seems the same, but can you say us what he tells you about this tachi? Was from katanacenter or other site?

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Teengu Rookie

Teengu

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Dear Miike and Carlos.

 

Please add your names to your posts so that we know who we are speaking with. You can do it automatically from your profile.

 

Katanacentre has been around for some time, offering on Ebay though a lot of pieces looked to have been messed with. He had some genuine stuff though all the interesting things were marked as sold. These latest pieces are horrible and the descriptions can only be described as deliberately deceptive. As always knowledge is the best protection.

 

Carlos, the sword you show is now of no interest to you I take it? For what it is worth it looks like a Chinese made sword with the spurious certificates that are now becoming common.

 

All the best.

Hi Geraint, sorry, I'll make it !

 

Miike

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Abaris Explorer

Abaris

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Hi Geraint, I did not buy the tachi, so I can sell it either, first I asked a trusted person for advice so I dismissed it.

 

What he told me is that he had a guy in Japan who senda these "nihonto" to him to be polished because he was a well known one. Once received he check them and repair what has to be repaired and then, he makes the shirasaya and/or the koshirae if needed.

 

That's what he told me around 12-13th september. I deleted the conversation and the contact when this another guy told me it was fake, but I kept the pictures.

 

He also has some more "nihonto" at second hand pages, some of them for something like 7,000€ (8,000$?).

 

Carlos M.

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raynor Proficient

raynor

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I bought my very first pair of menuki from katanacentre, a while ago. While they are far from masterpieces I am fairly confident they are genuine, but will always bow to more learned opinions.

 

https://imgur.com/a/7q4Awsw

 

Suspicious with the swords. Someone who is in the business of selling these items are usually somewhat knowledgeable and then none of this would make sense.

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Keiji Collaborator

Keiji

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I have been studying with Massimo since 2011, I guarantee that Ponzio is not a student and has never studied by him. He came once, only 1, I met him personally, he showed us a blade he built, honestly very poor. Stop. I don't want to discredit any person here, but before becoming togishi you must study the history and development of the Japanese sword, kantei, books, visit museums, attend study meetings, etc. etc. Then with time, dedication, a small step at a time, many trips to Japan, maybe you can become togishi. Togishi is much more than businnes, so I think this.

 

There have also been scams similar to these on eBay and other auction sites.

 

He has an account here on the forum.

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