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Kai Gunto... Incognito


Austus

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I need help figuring out this very unusual Kai Gunto.

 

For starters, it was resting in a Late-War Army saya. The menukis are clearly Navy.

 

The tang and all numberts match, #102. But it is unsigned, and has no stamps of any kind. I always thought maybe it was stainless steel and/or oil tempered, but the steel is pretty dark. No grain.

 

The first really weird thing: it's NOT SHARP.  The kissaki is sharp, and it's plenty sharp forward from the habaki a couple of inches. The dull part of the edge is polished like the rest of the blade. It was either dulled professionally or was made that way. Is this still a sword?

 

There's a ding on the edge a few inches back from the yokote, and a couple of other damaged spots that wouldn't show in the pictures. There are plenty of scratches, especially near the habaki.

 

I'd love to hear that it's not stamped because it's traditionally made. Don't know if the pics will help determine that. 

 

 Here's where it gets really weird: the furniture. Check the next post pics, please.

 

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Austus,

 

The stamped number, matching the numbers on the fittings, are put there by the shop that fit the blade out originally. That there are no other stamps present is not unusual. It's not a guarantee that the blade is traditionally made though, as the stamping didn't really get serious until 1940. So it could have been made before that. Also, blades made for the navy didn't seem to get stamped as religiously as the army blades did. Other guys more expert in spotting nihonto will have to chime in about it, but my bet is that it's not traditionally made.

 

The saya was probably grabbed by a G.I. and put with the blade. It was common for a guy to pick up a blade without a scabbard and look around before returning home to find a scabbard for it.

 

Can't say about the edge sharpness. From your pics, it looks like it might have been polished, post-war. Maybe the polisher didn't finish off the edge? There was an official requirement to dull the edge of blades "in peacetime", but as far as I know, there were only a couple of years in the '30s that qualified for that requirement.

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The tsuba, seppas, and fuchi are stamped 102 like the blade. No numbers on the habaki. 

 

The fuchi looks like solid gold. Is that possible?  The only other example of this "solid" appearance I can find is in Dawson's book page 277, the Minatogawa sword made by Masanao. That ito is also the same color and twisted. Just sayin'.

 

The habaki is loose. It doesn't show much wear, is cracked, and is not magnetic.

 

But get this -- the tsuba and seppas and maybe the habaki appear to have beer completely plated with copper. There's blackening peering out from underneath. Along with the green corrosion was some rust. When I checked with a magnet, the seppas are iron! They're supposed to be gold-plated brass, right? After reading farther in Dawson's book, it says "Fittings are gold plated brass; in one documented case, gold plated iron."  How about copper-plated iron? Got any?

 

Oh yeah, there's a damaged spot on the tsuba.  I'm not gonna speculate. But I sure hope y'all do.

 

Any feedback is appreciated. This one is a puzzle.

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I agree it looks like anti-rust steel looking at the tang,   have you tried a magnet on the tang , if it is pure stainless steel it should not work ,

 

just a thought  !  I have seen many swords on tables at antique auctions etc.  arms fairs , it is not uncommon for someone to mix scabbards up and they end up sometimes in the wrong mounts . 

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Thanks, Ray, for the response.  I used a magnet on the blade and it stuck.  Will take off the tsuka if need to.  Don't know if stainless would be this dark. As for anti-rust steel, that would make great sense, it's really clean.

I definitely agree that sayas are switched frequently. I love those Navy rayskin sayas; wish it had one. Maybe it did.

 

What I'm most curious about is those iron seppas and the overall copper plating.

Didn't want to influence the thought patterns; but I think this sword was repaired at one time. Seems like there should be some stamps involved here. Any ideas on that?

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Thanks, Gents, For the feedback.

 

The pictures don't reflect the situation. It looks like, in person, that the tsuba and seppas were originally blackened and then copper plated later. I'm not sure if the tsuba isn't bronze like expected; but don't ever remember seeing one that was copper plated. But what about the steel seppas?? The way I read Dawson, there's only one set of those known. 

 

My original conclusions were that this is a refurbished sword that was too early for stamps and was dulled to remove edge damage, leaving only accouple of dings. All the furniture maybe was plated with copper over what was already there. I also thought it was oil tempered, but don't know about the steel. I didn't know about the steel seppas.

 

What about that big ding on the tsuba? Does it look combat related? I wonder if that's why the habaki doesn't fit and has little wear This is a non-locking sword. The habaki is also a little different color than the rest of the fittings. I think it's a replacement, but maybe even later.

 

And the original reason I posted this sword: Could the fuchi be solid gold? Sure looks like it. I'll get it tested if y'all say that's a possibility.

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I've handled a few Kai Gunto, and I think this one is fairly typical, with a bit of wear. The P-37 fittings I believe may be all brass, or possibly brass plated alloy, which is usually blacked. As this wears off, it goes back to brass. If there is an underlying coat, then this would become apparent as you wear through the brass.

 

Some components, like the habaki, may be gilt.  Here are some reference pictures from one I had to deal with.  You can see both sides of the TSUBA and the large O-SEPPA.

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Okay.  Thanks, John.  You're breaking my heart but I bet you're right.   And yes, we're always hoping we got lucky.  If only the sword could talk!

 

 People are always saying this, "if only they could talk"! Frankly, given what the Pacific campaign was like, and "the Great Eastern War", you should thank G'd that they are silent.

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That's a nice sword there, David. I'd love to have one like it. But it's pretty different than mine. Better, maybe, but different. Yours looks traditional, for one.

 

All the seppas on mine will stick to a magnet. Those and the copper plating make this an oddball, if not unique. Maybe that's not good. I'm still looking for answers.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

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Dave, you're right about the harsh truth of that war. I have only recently become aware of the brutality and horror of that campaign. It makes me proud of our military and citizens of the time. I'm beginning to understand why they were called "The Greatest Generation." We all owe them so much. 

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Wow. Talk about lovely. I feel a little jealous. Okay, maybe a lot.

 

Neil, I noticed one of your Kai Guntos in the "Show Us Your High Quality Guntos" thread (one of these?) that looked like it had small seppas that were steel. Have you ever seen steel seppas or copper plating on a Kai Gunto?

 

Thanks for sharing!

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Thanks, Neil, for verifying that.   What a collection you must have.

 

I'm starting to think that maybe these steel seppas were replacements later in the war, if and when this sword was repaired.  By then, brass was in real short supply; and if they were original, it does seem like they would be a lot rustier than this.  One problem with that, though: they're numbered the same as the rest. I may be stuck with just theories, unfortunately, when all is said and done.

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That's a great point, Neil; very helpful.  Those O-seppas are thick, and mine are definitely not.  They're made to look thick; but are actually very thin. And brass doesn't rust. These require some further investigation. Just not sure where to go with it. 

 

I know now why I haven't seen any excellent Kai Guntos for sale lately. Looks like you got them all.

 

Thank you for the helpful feedback!

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Thanks, Alan, I appreciate that. Unfortunately, my wording was poor. I was trying to say that it IS sharp starting at the habaki and going forward accouple of inches, where it gets really UNsharp.  Previously, I learned here that showa swords are sometimes not sharpened down by the habaki, which is true on a couple of my swords. But this one is the other way around, which makes it even weirder. It gets sharp again at the yokote., and has a nice hissaki. Have you ever heard of ANY sword that wasn't sharp in the body, especially in the sweet spot?  Me, neither.  

 

If photos could show the ding in the edge near the yokote, maybe others would agree that the most logical reason for this professional dulling (and probably the steel seppas) would be a late-war repair. But then you have further damage (lots of swcratches); but not a lot of rust on the steel seppas. And I'm wondering just what kind of officer would plate the furniture with flashy copper when everyone else is blackened?   What a weird sword!   I still like it.

 

Thanks for the help, Y'all!!

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 The most likely reason for all the oddities and discrepancies is that it is an assemblage of parts, possibly during the war, probably post war.

 Either scenario is likely, swords were damaged and repaired in the field all the time, using what was to hand. The same think is done by collectors (cough) and dealers to complete damaged or stripped swords.

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Well, Dave, I agree with part of that. Clearly, the saya is a replacement; but it's Army; so who would do that? Perhaps the original saya was one of those rayskin beauties; and that would have gotten snatched.The seppas can't be original; but they aren't normal (and could be one of only two sets known); and all the parts are stamped the same number, 102, including the blade. Plus they're copper plated, and not only is that impossible in the field, no collector or dealer could or would do that. And then there's the de-sharped blade. That doesn't make sense at all, even as a repair.

 

Okay, I'm putting down my new Occam's razor, and proposing a possibility: Perhaps this was an unsigned Minatogawa-style sword owned by a very high ranking officer who suffered through a ship being bombarded. Who else would presume to plate his repaired furniture with flashy copper? Maybe this officer wasn't expected to fight with this sword; so no ha was really needed. Why keep a blade that was so damaged if there weren't something special about the blade or it was too late in the war to replace it correctly? The habaki doesn't fit right, is a different color, and has little wear -- it's probably a replacement, later. Could the original have had one of those Minotogawa habakis on it? Like a mon, those engravings could be put on anything. So maybe the saya and habaki were switched; but it still leaves a lot of mystery. I know this sounds far fetched; but all we have left is conjecture.

 

I really appreciate all the replies to this weird but beautiful sword. Unfortunately, I'm still left with no definitive answers.  THANK YOU ALL for the feedback!

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That's a nice sword there, David. I'd love to have one like it. But it's pretty different than mine. Better, maybe, but different. Yours looks traditional, for one.

 

All the seppas on mine will stick to a magnet. Those and the copper plating make this an oddball, if not unique. Maybe that's not good. I'm still looking for answers.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I unfortunately no longer have access to it, as it was sold by my employer. I will have to remember next time we get in a P-37 to try a magnet on the fittings to see if they are solid brass, or steel plated brass.  I would definitely think that you'd want them to be solid brass as they were for the navy, but there are almost always exceptions.

 

The HAMON on that example was very nice, and it had a traditional polish on it.

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Too bad you didn't buy it, David. That is a nice sword! I noticed that it also has twisted ito like mine; whereas all of the ones that Neil posted were not. His are all obviously top quality, though. I still think my tsuka looks a lot like the Minatogawa sword in Dawson's book. Haven't noticed another with the same characteristics, yet.

 

There's gotta be more steel seppas  out there on Kai Guntos!

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