Help Identity Our Mons.

[Guest]

Thank you Uwe and Steve M.

 

Hi Steve, the menuki in JP's image are the standard Kaigunto pattern of Maru  Ni Yamato Zakura with the addition of the central Kamon in Silver.

 

The Gunto Menuki which you illustrated (http://www.jp-milita...viphtml/70.html) are slightly different, being without the circle, I think called Yae Yamato Zakura  (Cherry Blossom with stamens and petals.beneath) 

 

See Ohmura:

 

http://ohmura-study.net/905.html

[16k]

Thank you for your replies, guys.

 

Malcolm, here it is reversed, as requested!

[Guest]

Hi Guys, 

 

Thank you JP, looking closely, I still reckon that the Leaves at 12o'clock are Tsuta, as there is a central dot from which the veins extend.

 

[uwe]

FYI,

 

 

 

[16k]

Yup! Seems to be the one! Thank you guys!

[Guest]

Uwe, I think you have it!!

 

Mitsu Tsuta Shiriawase it is.

 

Well done. 

[uwe]

Sometimes I’m lucky...????

[16k]

Do we know which families used that Kamon?

[uwe]

Do we know which families used that Kamon?

 

Look at one of my earlier posts JP

 

 

probably "Matsudaira Daimyo of Obata in Kodzuke"

 

[16k]

I’d seen that Uwe, Thanks! but when I checked, I stumbled upon the Aoi mon for them. Now, that was Wikipedia, so maybe they got it wrong or just put the Tokugawa mon since they were related.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Wikipedia uses generalized Mons from what I've seen, often simply putting them under Hollyhock or Imperial household.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well known, and oft talked about, found on a kyu backstrap:

 

[Guest]

Hi Bruce,

 

it's called Maru Ni Hachisuka Manji (Becase the lines of the Swastika are quite thick, if they were thinner, i.e larger spaced, in same angle, then it would be Maru Ni Itsutsuwari Manji.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a Kagami Maedate with that Hachisuka Mon, the same thick tomo-e manji. 

 

Interestingly, if you visit Tokushima Castle Museum, you will see many examples of a reversed Manji too, because as they explained to me, one branch of the family wanted to distinguish their own line from the main one.

[eventwave]

Hello

I would like to ask you for help in identifying the Mon or confirming the results of my research.

On the saya of daisho koshirae, the Mon is Maru Ni Mitsuboshi.

According to my findings, the Mon could belong to Katsura Kogoro, later Kido Takayoshi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kido_Takayoshi

 

There are several people with this Mon on this link, but only one is a samurai.

 

https://ippongi.org/2011/12/23/月星紋%e3%80%80－狩猟、漁労、海上の民の痕跡紋－%e3%80%80新/

 

Katsura Kogoro was later renamed to Kido Takayoshi (木戸 孝允) in 1869 and use another kamon (chrizantenium)

https://ippongi.org/2009/01/12/kiku/

 

However, I did not find any other credible link that would confirm these findings.

I would be very grateful if you were interested in this character and would share your knowledge.

I attach some photos.

Of course, the family crest belonged to the Katsura family (or other family), koshirae may not belong directly to Katsura Kogoro, but to anyone in the Katsura family, ...but it is still very close to this important man.

 

thank you very much

Mayo

[Bugyotsuji]

The original three-star or three-dango Mon had no circle but at some point it was added.

 

Towards the end of Edo in the confusion of the Bakumatsu, many families claimed Samurai status, and after the beginning of Meiji it must have been a free-for-all.

 

Here is a billfold or wallet with the same Mon.

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

 

Is this just a normal Kikusui mon or is it a recognized variation?

 

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[b.hennick]

It was used on blades made at the Minotogawa jinja.

[David Flynn]

Also, by Sadakazu and Sadakatsu.   Sadakazu, on the Nakago and Sadakatsu, on the blade.

[Guest]

Hi Bryce,

 

It's a variation, yours shows 7 petals and two lines representing the stream.

 

Normally Kikusui Kamon shows 9 petals and three lines representing the stream, as used on blades forged at Minatogawa Jinja.

 

The 9, 3 version is the one commonly associated with Kusonoki Masashige (To whom the shrine was dedicated).

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihonto/minatogawa_shrine_masanao/index.htm

 

[Bryce]

Thanks Malcolm

 

Cheers,

Bryce

[PNSSHOGUN]

Can't remember if this one was covered yet, always fascinated by your background info on these regardless.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi John, that one (Makino) came up yesterday on one of the threads.

[Guest]

Maru Ni Maki No Kashiwa, or Maruni Mitsu Gashiwa..........??!! 

 

The clue is in the post from yesterday which Piers mentions.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30678-need-help-identifying-the-maker-of-this-katana/

[PNSSHOGUN]

Found it, thank you. Very interesting, the sword is a nice one with Shin Shinto blade and fine quality mountings. The Habaki almost looks like Shakudo and the oversize Seppa are either silver or silver plated.

[uwe]

 

Hello

I would like to ask you for help in identifying the Mon or confirming the results of my research.

On the saya of daisho koshirae, the Mon is Maru Ni Mitsuboshi.

According to my findings, the Mon could belong to Katsura Kogoro, later Kido Takayoshi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kido_Takayoshi

 

There are several people with this Mon on this link, but only one is a samurai.

 

https://ippongi.org/2011/12/23/月星紋%e3%80%80－狩猟、漁労、海上の民の痕跡紋－%e3%80%80新/

 

Katsura Kogoro was later renamed to Kido Takayoshi (木戸 孝允) in 1869 and use another kamon (chrizantenium)

https://ippongi.org/2009/01/12/kiku/

 

However, I did not find any other credible link that would confirm these findings.

I would be very grateful if you were interested in this character and would share your knowledge.

I attach some photos.

Of course, the family crest belonged to the Katsura family (or other family), koshirae may not belong directly to Katsura Kogoro, but to anyone in the Katsura family, ...but it is still very close to this important man.

 

thank you very much

Mayo

 

 

Hi Mayo,

 

astonishingly your mon is not covered in the books I have, though it looks quite simple (“maru ni mitsuboshi”).

I suspect, that this, like most of the Japanese mon, was utilized by several families (家) over the centuries. Trying to pin down a certain person or clan, might be almost impossible. As Piers said, no rules at some point around Meiji and onwards......furthermore, the new staging of the nobility based on the European model!

So without proper references, I hate to say, your search could be hopeless and ending up only in assumptions.....

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a wild one! Don't know where I found it.

[Guest]

Hi Bruce, nice find.

 

Although the image is not too clear, I'm pretty sure that it is the "Kan - In  Giku"  Kamon  菊紋  variant, which shows as one central 16 petal Chrysanthemum, flat on, which is surrounded at the cardinal points by four flat on Chrysanthemum cut in to make the circle, and at the ordinal points, four side on views of Chrysanthemum and leaves.

 

It is top line, second from the left in the image below:

 

 

(Also, see page 177 of the Matsuya Piece Goods Store catalogue - reprinted by Dover under the title " Japanese Design Motifs)

[Guest]

Hi Guys, just an update on the Maru Ni Mitsuboshi Kamon mentioned previously:

 

 

 

I have just found a reference which mentions the three stars having a connection with the worship of constellation of Orion and representing the three Celestial Generals:

 

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/NihonSymbols.htm

[Stegel]

Here's one of  mine...