Shuriken

[sz_waldmann]

Hi, 

 

Just being curious. 

 

A few days ago I had the first (supposedly) antique shurriken in my hands, from a trusted seller. That thing was HUGE. Like my hand with my fingers extended huge. And heavy. It was black, had a nice patina, and a very old box (just like the tsuba boxes, just bigger). It was a five point star shape, each point having two cutting edges. 

 

Can this be right? I have checked the net, and I don't find anything like this. Most photos show shurikens as small as they are in movies. 

 

What do you think a fair price would be for such a piece (granted it is authentic)?

 

Thanks, 

 

Szabolcs

[ROKUJURO]

I would be interested too, to see an authentic and old SHURIKEN. Even the Japanese NINJA museums seem to have only modern copies/items, and these are quite small.

[Brian]

Without pics, I don't think anyone will be able to venture a guess.
Obviously the first thought is going to be: fantasy item.
I am not sure if the Hollywood "Ninja" shiruken was a completely made up item, or if it was based on something real. I would guess they never really existed, but it is always possible someone experimented with the concept.
I found this online: (Supposedly Edo period and in a castle museum in Japan)

[vajo]

Jean, Shuriken are not allowed in Germany. You can not own them or make some.

[Alex A]

Seen a few books with images on ebay etc, thats about it.

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

I can make them, own and display them, but we are not allowed to carry or use them outside the house, as far as I understand § 42 WaffGes.

[vajo]

Hi Jean

 

Who acquires, possesses, leases, leads, spends, takes along, produces, processes, repairs or trades a throwing star, must expect imprisonment of up to three years or a fine, § 52 III No. 1 WaffG. They are also known by the terms ninja star or shuriken.

 

Wer einen Wurfstern erwirbt, besitzt, überlässt, führt, verbringt, mitnimmt, herstellt, bearbeitet, instand setzt oder damit Handel treibt, muß mit einer Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder Geldstrafe rechnen, § 52 III Nr. 1 WaffG. Sie sind auch unter den Begriffen Ninja-Stern oder Shuriken bekannt.

 

Shuriken are handled like you have an atomic bomb in germany.

[ROKUJURO]

Well, as a blade-smith I am allowed to possess 'dangerous' things that are forbidden for normal citizen. I have a few of these items in my personal collection/museum and on display, but of course mostly legal ones!



 

[Logan09]

There's 2 listings on eBay for some right now. I glanced by them, as I always figured they were a kind of "fantasy" item.

[sz_waldmann]

I asked for a photo, for i also do not readily believebthat there were any ninja shurikens at all. Or even ninjas for that matter. But it sure looked cool and crude in a sense.

 

Szab

[Jean]

Hi Brian,

 

The example you posted makes me think of the one used by Marlon Brando in Missouri Breaks movie to kill a rabbit..

[16k]

Without pics, I don't think anyone will be able to venture a guess.

Obviously the first thought is going to be: fantasy item.

I am not sure if the Hollywood "Ninja" shiruken was a completely made up item, or if it was based on something real. I would guess they never really existed, but it is always possible someone experimented with the concept.

I found this online: (Supposedly Edo period and in a castle museum in Japan)

I remember reading a conversation on another board. Never been there but there is a ninja museum in Iga province (not sure the name is still Iga), and apparently, they have a nice ninja to on display there... made by Hanwei!

[ChrisW]

I always thought this was the stuff of fantasy...

 

I mean, ninjas WERE real in a sense, mostly as political assassins/peasants who took up arms against samurai by using the implements they had at hand (IE farmtools). I know some things were real like a kunai with chain. I didn't think that stars were a thing though.

 

Neat if authentic!

 

Honestly, the thing above looks more like a broken/bent caltrop than a practical star though.

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

you had probably the peasant population of OKINAWA in mind and thought of KAMA, TONFA, NUNCHAKU and other arms which were derived from farm tools. NINJA (no plural form in Japanese nouns) were a secret society, and very little is known about their inner organisation and their arms, and that is not un-typical for secret societies. It is only recently (< 50 years or so in my observation) that people seem to become interested in NINJA, probably triggered by (non-Japanese) movies.

Suddenly there are schools that train wannabe-NINJA, and they have even teacher who consider themselves to be in the genetic line of these former assassins/agents. 

Quite amazing!   

[John A Stuart]

Shinobi or ninja did exist, but, not as in the movies with famous night suits and flash bang disappearing tricks. The east in general had operatives that worked to gather info or cause logistical confusion as did most armies world wide and currently. What would you call black ops? Throwing darts and knives could be all considered shuriken if in a Japanese context. The stars are actually shaken. What is special about them? They can be fabricated in the field relatively easily and their loss causes little problem. Most young bushi would be adept at knife throwing, just as sport for children, I find it still fun..

[ChrisW]

Interesting, thanks Jean! Its something I never really looked much into. I always thought it was overly-dramatic and fictionalized.

 

As with most things, there's a seed of truth buried somewhere down in there.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Those long spikes or bo shuriken seem to be the the ones most commonly used by "Ninja" or anyone else needing a handy throwing weapon for distraction.

[Guest]

Many Ryu - Ha contain some form of throwing spike or "shuriken" within their syllabus. 

 

Here's Negishi Ryu at the 2019  Kobudo Shinkokai Embu 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhjnRs7gURk

[Shugyosha]

I can remember seeing a documentary on Japanese martial arts - I can't remember the exact context but there was an old guy practising throwing the needle style shuriken at a man-shaped target and the comment made was along the lines of these are the real thing, not the star shaped ones.

 

I'd be cautious about parting with money for this stuff - it seems that these sort of Ninja articles have increased in number recently presumably to meet a perceived demand in the West.

[IanB]

This is a very speculative area that as has been said probably owes more to Hollywood than actuality. I remember seeing a little shop in Tokyo with a display of so-called ninja weapons in the window that looked like someone knocked them up in a shed. No doubt some samurai were skilled at throwing knives / missiles, but I wonder how many bothered. We have all seen kusari gama - the sickle / chain combinations that were obviously knocked up from an agricultural tool, but in the Watanabe Museum in Tottori they had one made for a member of the Ikeda family - beautifully lacquered and polished with a slip-on saya. So, never say never, but bits of 5mm square iron bar with points on -Hmmm.

Ian Bottomley

[Dave R]

 Personal reminiscence of hearing about Ninja for the first time, 45 years ago, from an ex "Kings Shropshire Light Infantryman". He was talking about the riots, which he described as a civil war, in Mauritius 1968, and claimed that both sides were hiring in Japanese mercenaries called "Ninja"! He also described the use of throwing stars. This could have been total BS from an old soldier, and a rehash of films seen in Singapore where the regiment was based.... But it was a few years before I heard of either again.

 Wikipedia describes the fighting as being mainly between street gangs, so perhaps they were imitating what they had seen and heard of on screen. 

 Just my two pennyworth.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Mauritian_riots

[PNSSHOGUN]

Interesting video on the topic and realities of "Ninja"

 

[Brian]

"In Ninjitsu, shiruken is pretty useless. Simply put, it's annoying to carry around. I mean...how would you carry all of them around?.......and because it's iron, it's a waste if you throw them.......also it's really difficult to hit someone with it..it's difficult enough to hit a stationary object, so how can you hit a moving person with one? It's very unreliable. It'd be better if you just threw some stones." 
I like this guy. And he speaks the truth.
Interesting video, I enjoyed that.
 

[obiwanknabbe]

I'll weigh in here as i am actually a student of Ninjutsu..I can't validate anything about the man in the above video other than that he runs the "ninja" museum in Iga but I study Genbukan Ninjutsu under the seal of Shoto Tanemura (https://genbukan.org/home/masters/267-2/) and call tell you definitively that Shuriken are 100% real. They came in all different sizes as they had varied uses. Some were used as hand weapons, some used for distraction, some could be used for climbing. The needle type mentioned above are called Bo-Shuriken. Most were never really used as you see them in the movies as lethal one shot throwing weapon. It could be done, but was more of a secondary consideration.  As for ninja being peasants, yes sometimes they were, but more often than not, they were actually samurai. 

I put out a request through my teacher to see if i can get a picture of some of the ancestral pieces Tanemura Sensei may have in his possession so that we can study them. 

[DanielGJ]

I'll weigh in here as i am actually a student of Ninjutsu..I can't validate anything about the man in the above video other than that he runs the "ninja" museum in Iga but I study Genbukan Ninjutsu under the seal of Shoto Tanemura (https://genbukan.org/home/masters/267-2/) and call tell you definitively that Shuriken are 100% real. They came in all different sizes as they had varied uses. Some were used as hand weapons, some used for distraction, some could be used for climbing. The needle type mentioned above are called Bo-Shuriken. Most were never really used as you see them in the movies as lethal one shot throwing weapon. It could be done, but was more of a secondary consideration.  As for ninja being peasants, yes sometimes they were, but more often than not, they were actually samurai. 

I put out a request through my teacher to see if i can get a picture of some of the ancestral pieces Tanemura Sensei may have in his possession so that we can study them.

 

I agree with the partner, I practice Bujinkan and I have to say that it has nothing to do with the movies that were made in the 80/90 on the ninjas, it is Budo, the way of the warrior, greetings.

[sz_waldmann]

Hello, 

 

this are the photos I got from the dealer. 

 

The patina looks right, the thing is pretty cool and amazing in person, but you know, this can be anything from a very good falsery to an old (like 100, 200 years old) fantasy item, or even the real deal. 

 

What do you think?

 

And can somebody please read what's written on the box? Maybe that helps.

 

thanks for your imput, 

 

SZAB

[Alex A]

Well Szab, it certainly makes the ones I made a mess of my folks gate with back in the 80,s look feeble.

[vajo]

Looks like the blade of my stihl motorik ????

[John A Stuart]

 

手裏剣 shuriken (should be 車剣 shaken) 大五方 large 5 sided. I can't read the rest. John

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

If it's not real, it should be!