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What Is This, Really?


Lingonberry

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Hi All,

 

It's time I come to grips with the fact that I made a bad buy a few years back. I picked up something which several knowledgable people have told me is gimei and more likely than not also has hagire. Since there is no point sending to shinsa since it will auto fail I thought I would ask for some help on here to identify it.

 

Couple of questions -

 

1. Age? I initially thought koto because in hand it has the "light and well balanced" feel and it seemed to have the right shape but now I'm not so sure. In my own photos the sugata seems rather straight.

2. School or smith?

3. In some light it looks like it has a boshi, in others it looks like the hamon runs off the edge in the kissaki. It's terribly confusing whether or not this sword even has a boshi.

4. 100% hagire, right? I'm fairly certain it is.

 

The really sad thing is that despite all these issues it still has nice jigane and activity in the hamon, and also has a really nice fresh polish. I'm not really sure what to do with it at this point. A friend suggested I approach the seller and ask for a refund or trade but I don't think it would be fair of me to do that since A) I bought it several years ago so any semblance of a reasonable "inspection period" has LONG since passed and B) the seller was very clear that there was a potential hagire in the listing and provided ample photos.

 

I'll be at the Tampa show so if anyone cares to look at it in person let me know and I will bring it with me.

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I sold this sword in 2012 with an absolutely clear description and multiple photographs of the area in question. 

 

Like Ray, I am of the opinion that this is kitae-ware, located in a less than optimal place on the blade. 

 

While unfortunate, it is what it is, and as Adam stated there was no attempt to hide this or deceive anyone.  I gave my opinion, and stated clearly that any potential buyer should study the photos closely and decide for themselves prior to making a purchase.

 

If there is any doubt, read the original listing and look at the photos.  http://yakiba.com/Kat_Dotanuki.htm

 

The photo that should have been added if you want opinions is the 40X magnification of the area in question. (1st photo below with others).

 

You bought it dirt cheap, if you don't like it sell it. 

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Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Like I said in the original post the listing showed many pictures and made no secret of the possibility of hagire.

 

I just want to clear up my own confusion as I keep hearing different things from different people. My main question is mostly about the mei because, though it looked okay to me, some people said "gimei" so that got me wondering what the sword really is if not dotanuki.

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Thank you Vermithrax. I'm having a tough time finding good examples of the signature because my google-fu is weak and 11/10 of my search results are companies selling machine made iaito named "dotanuki."

 

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that when someone asked a smith to make them a sword the smith would make 3 blades, then ask the customer to choose their favorite. The one the customer picked would get the formal/official mei added to the nakago, whereas the other two blades would get a less formal mei and were either sold as-is or dedicated to a shrine. Then again, I also read somewhere that only the very best of a smith's work would be dedicated to a shrine so I'm not really sure about all that.

 

I'm debating signing up for a shinsa slot in Tampa...

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Adam,

I have no idea. Possible I guess.

 

I checked the Sesko Koto Meikan and broke out the Fujishiro as well a bit ago. The style and cutting very different from source material examples. If you are going to the Tampa shinsa personally and not mailing the sword in, why not submit it? It would be fun and knowledge building experience to go through a shinsa no matter the result IMO. Not a huge cost either.

 

EDIT:

Stephen posted right before me :)   If the cost is not a hindrance to you, I still think the experience will be worth the effort.

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 best bet to have it nailed down.

 

Ha!  Reminds me of that other thread....

 

The sword has some nice points. Could the area from the yokote to the tip be repolished?  If I were going to roll the dice, I might go that route instead of shinsa.  Definitely take it to the show and get some opinions.  Actually, if it were mine, I think I would be happy with it as-is, or take it to the show and trade for something else.

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Adam,

I didn't mean to imply that you had any problems with my description or photos.  I just didn't want anyone else to get the wrong idea.

 

Like Jeremiah I referred once again to the examples in Fujishiros and Sesko's.  While I don't see any examples signed exactly like your sword, I was thinking the same thing today as back then.  Thinking that there are so many variations who knows.  Look at the examples on pg. 289-290 of Fujishiros, they are all different, same with the examples in Seskos.  Hard to make a guess, so I gave info on the mei as signed, Dotanuki. 

 

If it was me and I was going to be in Tampa anyway, I would submit it.  Not sure what the NTHK charges for bouncing one, but if it bounces you are not out much and if it passed, jackpot!  

 

If it bounces, I would ask about the kitae-ware vs hagiri.  If they say kitae-ware have the mei removed and re-submit.  It is still a nice sword and if mumei it will paper and you will have some idea of the maker.

 

Ultimately, you must keep things in perspective. When you consider what you have in it vs. what a signed papered Dotanuki sells for, I would just enjoy it as is.

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 Based on these images alone it seems premature to make a hagiri call just yet. Usually there will be a number of qualified people, polishers, dealers, and others, that should be able to pin this down for you in attendance in Tampa. While Shinsa may doom it, a positive outcome will assure and lay to rest any doubt should you decide to sell.

 

Good luck!

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I think mei is 同田貫小山上野介作 Dōtanuki Koyama Kōzuke no Suke saku. I've seen references of Dōtanuki smiths use all of those partially but never in that full form.

Exactly, which is why I'm a little confused. It also seems that they always put "kyushu" at the front of the mei, which this one doesn't have.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Final update: I showed it to someone at the show who pointed out it looks like there are two possible hagire in the middle of the blade which were hidden with some scuff marks. They're also so super tiny that you have to take out a loupe to see them and know where they are but they're there.

 

I took the sword back to the shinsa team and told them about it and asked them to have a look. Their response was that they could only see them on one side and that they were extremely small, even suggesting they might polish out. I take that to mean they don'tagree that they're hagire after all. They're sticking with the decision to issue papers for this sword and upon my request have added a note on the worksheet explaining why they don't think it's hagire.

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Have seen scratches that mimic hagire. Sometimes even under magnification. You have expert opinion there, and I would go with it if I were you.
Sounds like all is ok. Well done on pointing it out and asking.
 

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