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Humbleshogun

KIZU: Minor or Major

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I've posted pictures of what I deem to be six kizu on a single mumei blade. I am new to this field and was wondering how major or minor these are and do they detract significantly from the value of the blade. I know that determination may be difficult but all honest feedback is appreciated.

 

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With the exception of the one on the mune (which I would consider minor) I would expect the rest of these ware to lower the value of the sword. How much lowering is hard to say without knowing more about the sword. If it's being sold as the work of an important smith then the kizu really matter; not so much if the sword is "just a sword" and priced accordingly. Early Koto blades retain more of their value with kizu than would a Shinto or Shin-shinto blade.

In any case, this is a lot of trouble for one sword.

Grey

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The blade is not being sold as the work of an important smith but simple as a blade. It has a hozon paper and in good polish with a decent hamon. The original asking price was in the low $2,000. I am unsure of the fairness of that price.

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Me too.

Can you tell us more about the sword? What is the length? What is the attribution on the paper? How is it mounted?

Grey

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Nagasa: 44.5 cm

Sori: 1.2 cm

Kasane: 0.65 cm

 

It's a mumei, early edo period wak. NBTHK Hozon Kanteisho. I've attached a picture of the mountings. The Koshirae is in excellent condition with a signed tsuba.

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post-447-14196748172429_thumb.jpg

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Low 2K for the blade in polish, with paper and koshirae seems fair. Jumyo isn't the most valuable attribution but, hey, you get what you pay for. One way to look at it is, you're paying for the polish, shira-saya, and paper; the blade and koshirae are free.

Another way to look at it is to ask yourself how much the kizu will bother you. If you can own this, thinking that it's man made and thus not perfect and a nice thing despite the kizu and you can appreciate it for what's good then all will be fine. If, every time you look at it you'll be saying, "I wish I'd bought something better", then it may not make sense.

Yet another way to look at it is to ask yourself what's the purpose of owning it. If purely to have and enjoy, then all's well. If you plan to use it for eventual resale so you can move up to better stuff, then maybe not. It likely won't ever be worth much more than it is now, because of the kizu.

Hope this helps. Grey

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Thanks for the honest feedback. I will continue my search for a nice wak. I agree with your comments about value, appreciation and personnal appreciation. Personally, that's too many kizu than I would like in a single blade.

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always a head scratch to me that a blade with that many kizu gets papered and one really nice one with one hagire that has battle stress above it can get the das boot don't make any sense :dunno:

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I understand perfectly what you meant Stephen but these defects arent all that bad, 2k for a mounted and polished blade is quite honest.

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Stephen,

 

It's purely due to the fact that these are swords. Therefore they need to be able to be used as swords. A sword with a hagire will break in battle. With kizu, it is a bit ugly, but still a sword.

Even though these are now art, they must still retain their original function or they are just pretty pieces of metal.

With really rare and top class stuff, for the reasons that they are simply that important and are representative examples, fatal flaws are overlooked. But for anything less, there's Mastercard :D (Sorry, could't resist...but it does show that for anything less than the top works, you can go out and buy a better example, so lesser condition ones aren't as important and flaws aren't tolerated. But for the very best, fatal flaws will have to do, as there isn't much chance of buying something better as an example)

 

Brian

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Hi All,

 

I think Grey said it best. It all depends on the buyer and their intention for the sword. If I understood correctly, the deal may be fair but whether or not it's a good investment for personal pleasure or potential value is a different matter.

 

Personally, this many kizu is more than I would feel comfortable with.

 

Brian,

Thank you for the previous post. Quite relevant and beneficial. This has left me in a bind. I am back to looking for a good wak. I have no preference on time period but would prefer to keep it under $3500 and hopefully finda good solid example by a respected smith. I am open to all suggestions.

 

I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on this sword. I believe the mei is Seki Ju Kanemichi with a hitatsura hamon.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MESE:IT

 

V/r,

 

Paul F.

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Paul,

The mei reads, "Kanemichi Saku". I haven't done any research on the mei so I can't say anything about which Kanemichi it may be or even if the signature is right or fake. One thing you should know is that the paper shown in the photos isn't evidence of authenticity. It is the Japanese government issued registration paper. It tells us only that the sword is Nihonto and that it has been registered with the government.

Grey

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Hi,

 

always a head scratch to me that a blade with that many kizu gets papered and one really nice one with one hagire that has battle stress above it can get the das boot don't make any sense :dunno:

 

Stephen,

 

Hagire is a fatal flaw which is the effect of a forging mistake.

 

The kizu shown on this blade are not fatal, they result of over polishing and are tiredness aftermath.

 

Hozon certificate is not a gage of quality such many people believes, it only confirms a signature or an attribution and the absence of hagire, that's all.

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Stephen,

 

Hagire is a fatal flaw which is the effect of a forging mistake.

No kidding?

Well not all are forging mistakes, some do happen in battle and the one in my mind had battle nix on the mune just above it. The above kizu city blade is not a deal i could live with, who wants to be yelled at each time you handle it KIZU KIZU KIZU KIZU KIZU!!!! a kantai paper saying what it is would enough IMHO

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Hozon certificate is not a gage of quality such many people believes, it only confirms a signature or an attribution and the absence of hagire, that's all.

 

Sorry Jacques I disagree. My understanding of a Hozon paper is that it states a blade is "worthy of preservation" For this to be true requires more of a blade than that it has an authentic signature and isnt cracked.

It is true that the acceptable level of condition varies dependent on age and rarity but to suggest a signature and lack of hagire is sufficient justification to receive a hozon paper is I think an over simplification.

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Well not all are forging mistakes, some do happen in battle and the one in my mind had battle nix on the mune just above it.

 

Correct, IMHO.

In battle or in extreme conditions as Aratameshi :

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Aratameshi_Nihonto.html

 

This doesn't mean I totally agree with the linked article.

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Hi,

 

Well not all are forging mistakes, some do happen in battle and the one in my mind had battle nix on the mune just above it.

 

I wonder if there not a confusion between hagire and hakobore. It seems to me extremely difficult in case of battle to lose not some metal and have only a thin slit like one hair.

 

Sorry Jacques I disagree. My understanding of a Hozon paper is that it states a blade is "worthy of preservation" For this to be true requires more of a blade than that it has an authentic signature and isnt cracked.

It is true that the acceptable level of condition varies dependent on age and rarity but to suggest a signature and lack of hagire is sufficient justification to receive a hozon paper is I think an over simplification.

 

Maybe i'm wrong but it seems we have a good sample with the blade subject of this topic.

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Hi,

 

Well not all are forging mistakes, some do happen in battle and the one in my mind had battle nix on the mune just above it.

 

I wonder if there not a confusion between hagire and hakobore.

 

Maybe. What about the hagire due to stress as the ones cited in the article ?

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I was wondering about that. Some of those blades continued to cut hard items for a while after getting one or a few hagire. I would have thought they would have snapped soon after a hagire.

I was wondering if there is a Japanese word for a chip that goes through the hamon?

I assume by hagire they meant a hairline crack, although I would have expected deep chips in some of those cases instead of hagire.

Just wondering if what we call a hagire could be in this case a deep chip or nick that is fatal..or am I mistaken completely? They didn't mention any chips at all in those tests?

 

Brian

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Just wondering if what we call a hagire could be in this case a deep chip or nick that is fatal..or am I mistaken completely? They didn't mention any chips at all in those tests?

Brian

 

Hairline cracks in tempered part of swords of every culture can occur under situations of stress close or not close to the

point of impact, either they are called hagire or anything else. This can or cannot affect the ability of making other

strikes till the weak point is pushed to its limit. Think at the blades broken near the habakimoto.

A blade is like a chain. It can face the stresses as long as its weakest link (point) can. It can give you a warning with

a crack in the temperline or suddenly break in your hands.

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Hi,

 

I was wondering about that. Some of those blades continued to cut hard items for a while after getting one or a few hagire. I would have thought they would have snapped soon after a hagire.

I was wondering if there is a Japanese word for a chip that goes through the hamon?

I assume by hagire they meant a hairline crack, although I would have expected deep chips in some of those cases instead of hagire.

Just wondering if what we call a hagire could be in this case a deep chip or nick that is fatal..or am I mistaken completely? They didn't mention any chips at all in those tests?

 

Brian

 

Here there is a Sadatsuna with some hakobore it seems (i'm far from an expert in Japanese) they are called hagire 刃切れ in the description.

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Here there is a Sadatsuna with some hakobore it seems (i'm far from an expert in Japanese) they are called hagire 刃切れ in the description.

 

That support the "sumie" statement that Hagiri can be due to external reasons too and not exclusively from hardening.

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... there is a Sadatsuna with some hakobore it seems (i'm far from an expert in Japanese) they are called hagire 刃切れ in the description.
The characters are taken out of context; they basically only mean "cut in the edge". The description even goes on to explain that the chips in the edge are not due to forging flaws, and that swords with Hakobore can receive Jûyô papers:

ã¾ãŸã€åˆƒã“ã¼ã‚Œã¯åˆƒåˆ‡ã‚Œã€é›ãˆå‚·ãªã©ã®ä»–ã®æ¬ ç‚¹ç•°ãªã‚Šã€åˆ€å·¥ã®æŠ€é‡ã«ã‚ˆã‚Šç”Ÿã˜ãŸã‚‚ã®ã§ã¯ãªã„ãŸã‚ã€å¤æ¥ã‚ˆã‚Šå—ã‘å‚·ã¨åŒæ§˜å¤§ç›®ã«è¦‹ã‚‰ã‚Œã€åˆƒã“ã¼ã‚Œã®ã‚ã‚‹ã‚‚ã®ãŒé‡è¦åˆ€å‰£ã«æŒ‡å®šã•ã‚Œã¦ã„る例ã¯å°‘ãªãã‚ã‚Šã¾ã›ã‚“。

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Here there is a Sadatsuna with some hakobore it seems (i'm far from an expert in Japanese) they are called hagire 刃切れ in the description.

They say that Hakobore (刃ã“ã¼ã‚Œ) have been acceptable unlike other fatal flaws such as Hagire (刃切れ) in the context.

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Hi,

 

Thanks for clarification Guido and Moriyama san :bowdown:

 

That is certainly partly why, despite the attribution, this sword is only hozon.

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That is certainly partly why, despite the attribution, this sword is only hozon.

Sorry again, but the sword got a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

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That is certainly partly why, despite the attribution, this sword is only hozon.

Sorry again, but the sword got a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

 

Which sword are we talking about? The one on the previous page?

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