E-bay spoiler.

[bluboxer]

Well gentle folk,I know I am stirring up something here but I can stay silent no longer.I have seen an increase in "item informants" for lack of a better adjective on e-bay.Either a person who is fairly knowledgeable in nihonto is volunteering info or sellers are salting the mine with messages claiming that "you have a very valuable sword" or "you may not know what you have but".If this is the latter;buyer beware of spurious claims from mystery experts.If this is the former;please stop!

Most; if not all, of the collectors that frequent this forum have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on books alone not to mention the countless hours of research and study so that we are able to discern a true sword worthy of chasing from all of the other junk.If a seller is too lazy to find out what they have or to do any research about their item then they don't deserve the extra effort or the extra $.I know this person has good intentions and even enjoys the extra research but their actions only serve to drive up prices.E-bay used to have a lot of "entry level" items that were within reach of newcomers.This is no longer true.

An example;a gorgeous naginata from a couple of weeks ago.Mystery expert decides to inform everyone on e-bay how rare and wonderful this item is.It went from a nice deal at around 1800-2000 dollars to 3050 in the last 30 seconds of the auction.Understandably,this was a beautiful blade and it was sniped at the end but what if our mystery expert had said nothing.He/she surely had no intention of bidding on it.Why spoil it for everyone else?

I would like to hear other opinions so;let me have it!

 

Alan

[drbvac]

No arguments from me! Sometimes the "expert" is wrong but it still drives up the price. I wonder if sometimes the "seller" answers their own ad to bump up the price.

 

In any event its still an extension of the "buyer beware" axiom and it is and always will be an auction so the bid goes where it goes and the highest one wins.

 

No need of anyone not interested in buying giving any seller hints on the blade.

 

As an aside what about new members here asking about attribution, mei and values and then selling them on e-bay? I guess we just have to be careful in sharing knowledge - or not - hows that for a strong position :?

[Hermes]

I agree "item informants" are a downer, no doubt, but there is nothing we can do, i have paid the price and paid more as a result of claims made by so called experts, but ones never knows if someone emailed the seller, or the seller had a friend email him himself?

 

Bernard Levine has a few forums and he will put you on his sh*t list if he finds out your giving info to Ebay sellers, he says the same things you say Alan, if the seller doesn't have the time to research the item, then he doesn't deserve more money in his sale. Bernard in the past would ban you from his forum if he found out you are a Ebay Kibitzer.

 

James

[Brian]

Well, how about I take the opposing viewpoint? :D

This is all about ethics. It is the same as grabbing that Shinkai from the little old lady who has her husband's sword that he brought back from the war and has it on a garage sale at $200. You either are the type that grabs it, or one that tells her it is a good sword and maybe pays her more than she asked. That is for everyone to decide for themselves.

Expecting to see and grab that "sleeper" on eBay is a fantasy that persists. I don't believe that sellers are obligated to research every item they sell. The market decides the price, and those "snipe bids" are a fact of life. Every auction nowdays will have snipe bids, and they are seldom the result of someone finding out info they didn't know before. Trust me..if you see that "sleeper" then 100 other guys also saw it. So what if someone tells him what it is. That is life.

 

I have lost out on many deals because someone posted more info that got everyone interested. I just say "Oh well" and write it off. I admire those who take the time to advise people who don't know what they have. That's what this forum is about too. I have seen messages posted on eBay from many of the NMB members here who took the time to help someone with an auction.

So someone isn't familiar with Japanese swords and now has one from an estate that he needs to sell off...I don't expect him to do all the research on it first. If someone helps him either on eBay or off it, then good for him. Expecting to "steal" something for a bargain price is perhaps a pipe-dream that we all would love to have happen to us, but shouldn't expect.

 

We all want someone to inform that eBay seller that what he has is a total Chinese fake or his reserve is too high or he is describing it wrong or there are faults that he didn't notice....but we don't want the opposite to happen?

 

Just a differing viewpoint. However I'll stick to mine thanks, and am glad there are still people out there that take the time to help others who don't have the knowledge, either on ebay or here or anywhere.

 

Brian

[Jean]

I fully support your point of view Brian.

 

Unless dealing with a professional of course :D :D :D

[Thierry BERNARD]

i fully agree with Brian point of view!!

[Guido]

Brian, let's switch jobs - I don't know how to do yours, but you'd make a carreer in mine. :D

[Brian]

If you were still in Japan..then done deal. But China? Naaaah!

 

Brian

[bluboxer]

Thank you Brian, but I would disagree with your comparison of e-bay and a widow selling stuff in a garage sale.These are two completely different scenarios and I for one would be forthright and let the little old lady know what was at stake and even offer to hook her up with the right people(that is if I could not afford to pay her a fair price myself).That would be the righteous thing to do.However,I would find it hard to believe that little old ladies are selling swords on e-bay.Most of the sellers have real nice stories like this to tell and are just interested in moving merchandise.Some come right out and say they don't know or care to know about Japanese swords and rely on someone else to hawk their wares.

I also feel that it is ok and even beneficial to the buyers when someone provides a literal translation of a mei or other inscription.If it is factual;then ok.The buyer must then decide if it is gimei or not.If it is an opinion(designed to sell or not);not ok.Many times I have seen you or some else on this board say that the value of a sword is only what someone is willing to pay for it and that board members are hesitant to chime in when it could affect the outcome of a sale.Mystery experts can have an effect on perceived value.

I know that there are not any "sleepers" on e-bay and that is not what I am looking for.I only seek an honest chance of bidding without speculators influencing market conditions.The idea of "stealing" something for little money is preposterous;only the clueless would expect such on e-bay.There are hundreds of people like myself looking at these items and deciding what they would pay,is it real,is it a true nihonto and if they even have a chance of bidding high enough to win.

When an e-bay seller is told that his item is a fake;does he post this in his question section?I doubt it,this would seriously affect his sale.Any negative comments or suppositions will never be posted.Only positive comments are posted by sellers.

 

Alan

[Brian]

Alan,

I don't have any problem with you expressing your view, I'm just posing a few counterpoints.

A lot of this is all theoretical and doesn't always happen. I have seen many sellers post on their auctions "I have been told that this might be a fake" and otherwise, so we can't generalise.

Then there is the case of allowing buyers a fair shake at a good deal. What about allowing sellers a fair shake at a decent informed sale?

I can't always translate the swords I am interested in, and will ask someone here what it says. I would rather the seller post it if he knows, even if it sparks interest in others.

Also, there are many sellers that are exactly like that "little old lady with the garage sale"

There are a surprising number of people who sell their inherited items or clear out their homes online. Who are we to say that their story isn't correct?

You said it yourself...when an opinion is given on an auction, it is up to us (informed) people to assertain if the info is correct, if it is gimei and if it has flaws. So the info is only worth the source, and since we don't know the source, how can people have an advantage and influence the auction too much? And when it does turn out to be a nice item, and it goes higher, then I think the seller has gotten a fair deal. We don't lose anything when we don't win...we lose sometimes when we do. You say "I only seek an honest chance of bidding" and I say that sellers also have every right to an honest chance of getting a fair sale.

Bear in mind I am not a Nihonto seller either..I am a buyer, so I am not biased here.

Anyways..it's all just different opinions really. This is why the big guys rightfully tell us not to buy sword stuff on eBay

 

Regards,

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Personally...., I read these sorts of claims, with no regard to who is making them, in the same way as I regard all advertising.

 

Why take the word and opinion of the person, or that of their assistants, who wants your money? The danger here is obvious.

 

I think the old maxim; " let the buyer beware" , is no where more appropriate than on on-line auction sites like ebay.

 

As another old saying goes; " a fool and his money are soon parted"

 

...and one from my own trade, from the middle ages, "if you know nothing of jewellery, at least know your jeweller."

 

...so the question is, who are we trying to protect here?....the uneducated, who are out of their depth and hoping for a treasure? perhaps those costly mistakes are appropriate?

 

I don't believe that there are wondrous deals to be had in this way, unless by luck or by buying vast quantities of dross, in which case neither is really a great deal.

 

From what I see mediocre items are frequently oversold/bought by over-enthusiastic buyers who are actually out of touch with the reality of the market.

 

How's that for a bit of a stir?

 

regards, Ford

 

p.s.

Bear in mind I am not a Nihonto seller either..I am a buyer, so I am not biased here.

it looks, to me Brian, as though you're biased toward the informed buyer. No one is unbiased if they have an interest...it's oxymoronic

[Bungo]

As a " habitual " seller ( thank you, Mr. B ), I welcome people's imputs to my sales...........and I do post the q. and a. to be " visible " to the public ( unless the q. is too outrageous and/or obscene.....just kidding ).

The days of one discovering a hidden gems is just about over but do exist ( thank you, Antique Roadshow ), that's part of the fun. Just like out in deer hunting season, there will be yahoos that shoot at the cows ( or anything that moves )and scare the deer away.

What really bugs me now are the scammers ( bidders ) who think they can get away with scheme so out of this world that it instantly raises red flag.............like just join up e-bay with no buying /selling record, used the buy it now button for " big " ticket item, send request to seller about sending cashiere check and ....get this............ request the balance to be forwarded to another address !! Like............... now the seller becomes a check cashing machine ?? ( assuming the seller is so stupid that he/she/it will lose the sale item PLUS cash to boot ).

True story............. since I don't want the friendly moderators to censor me for highjacking the thread, I won't give you the actual link on e-bay..........it's my Mid Edo Nara school gardener tsuba ( a good deal, by the way ).

 

 

Ok, enough bitc%$# for this hot summer day..................

 

milt

[Jean]

Ok, enough bitc%$# for this hot summer day

 

In Paris, today , rain+17 °C and we are still in spring.

 

Concerning e-bay, no return policy no high resolution pictures, feedback section not to be trust, that is why I stay away from it, no guarantee. Other great commercial sites have a return policy.

 

I have bought only once from e-bay because I knew the seller (NMB member) - difficult to have a good feedback as after all the deals were off e-bay. I'll never get a huge feedback this way.

[Brian]

p.s.

Bear in mind I am not a Nihonto seller either..I am a buyer, so I am not biased here.

it looks, to me Brian, as though you're biased toward the informed buyer. No one is unbiased if they have an interest...it's oxymoronic

 

Well duh

Of course when I said I am a buyer not a seller, and not biased...I was meaning that I am not personally baised (in favour of sellers)

 

Brian

[bluboxer]

The varied responses to my query and opinions were very valuable and they are the reason I started this thread.

Brian,thank you for expressing your viewpoint.It appears I have become a little jaded in my dealings with strangers(environment?).Once bitten twice shy and maybe we should heed the advice of the "big guys".

Also after reading Ford's response I looked back at what I thought was a fair price (as in my earlier example) and perhaps my valuation was low.Apparently I am out of touch with the market and am expecting too much but I do not think I am overzealous (I do become soo excited tho) .

However;I still feel that a seller that goes out of his way deserves a little extra for going the extra mile/km and it is a pleasure to deal with such.The mystery experts should avoid appraisals as they don't have the blade in hand and are looking at the same photos as the rest of us.

Thanks again to those that replied,

Cheers

Alan

[Hermes]

I agree Alan, but when i see this kind of thing, maybe since i can not chance it, going with the flow seems like the way to go. On the tip, i would say a good 5mm was missing.

 

"Q: Hi T-V-I, Your sword tang says "Soshu Ju Masa Tsugu" which means Masaa Tsugu of Sagami province. There were two Masa Tsugu's, both working in the early 1500 hundreds. I can't tell you if the signiture is a fake or real and it's too bad the tip is broken. Some bidder will buy this hoping that the tip can be reshaped. It will be expensive to do and the sword will never be the same. If the tip was complete I, and a whole lot of other bidders, would be happy to buy this piece. Best of luck with your sale. Jack Jun-24-08

A: Thanks for your help. I hope someone can give it the attention it deserves. Very best, E."

 

James