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Help With Miyaguchi/ikkansai Kunimori Please


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Fellow members, I am requesting your help with some questions in regards to the Ikkansai/Miyaguchi Kunimori signed blades.

 

I am currently doing some very informal research into Miyaguchi Ikkansai Toshihiro/Yasuhiro, especially his time at Okura Tanrenjo. As I understand it, the current thinking is that these Kunimori signed blades were made in bulk using western steel by a smith named Mitsukoshi Hiromasa and only signed Kunimori by Miyaguchi Ikkansai Toshihiro/Yasuhiro. I have found the following references:

 

From Markus Sesko's, "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths":

“Toshihiro (寿広), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tōkyō – “Miyaguchi Ikkansai Toshihiro” (宮口一貫斎寿), “Toshihiro saku” (寿広作), “Miyaguchi Toshihiro” (宮口寿広), civilian name “Miyaguchi Shigeru”     (宮口繁), he was born in April 1897 as son of Yonezawa Kanjirō Masatoshi (米沢勘治郎正寿) in Tōkyō, he and his father were both adopted into the Miyaguchi family, after the death of his father he continued his studies under Kasama Shigetsugu (笠間繁継), he used the gō “Ikkansai” (一貫斎) from August 1916 onwards, in 1934 he entered the Yasukuni forge, special-order blades were signed by him with the name “Toshihiro”, the larger numbers of blades he made for the Yasukuni forge were signed with his Yasukuni-name “Yasuhiro” (靖広), blades made with western steel and some made by his students were signed by him with the pseudonym “Kunimori” (国護), in December 1936 he entered the Ōkura forge (大倉鍛錬所) and died on March 21st 1956 at the age of 59, his posthumous Buddhist name is “Kantoku´in Han´a Shinshō”  (貫徳院繁阿真照), records say that he made about 500 blades for the Yasukuni forge.”

 

From Fujishiro:

“Yasuhiro Miyaguchi (Showa 1926 Tokyo)

He is the chakushi of Miyaguchi Masahide, and is called TOSHIHIRO. He is in the Kasama Hankei Mon, he became the Kudan Nipponto Tanrenkai Toko for a number of years and signed YASUHIRO. However, later, without changing his name, he used both TOSHIHIRO and YASUHIRO. Also, in response to the demand for Yotetsu Gunto, he produced under the name of KUNIMORI (means “defend the country”). He also did horimono such as ryu, Fudo, Bonji nado. He died on Showa Sanjuichinen (1956) at the age of 60.

Signatures:         MIYAGUCHI IKKANSAI TOSHIHIRO

                             MIYAGUCHI YASUHIRO

                             YASUHIRO”

 

From Chris Bowen:

It is well known (in Japan) that these Kunimori blades were made with western steel (Fujishiro points this out in his Shinto Hen) and they are not considered nihon-to thusly, in the mainstream. Most seem to be oil quenched as well. It is certainly possible to forge western steel and oil quench it to produce a defined nioi-guchi. What one does not generally produce in these blades is nie, which is what a shinsa team is looking for in WWII era blades where there is concern about the blade being made in a non-traditional way.”

 

"…his swords were not made by Miyaguchi, only signed by him. According to his son, who helped hold the blades while his father cut the signatures, they were made in bulk by a smith in Shizuoka prefecture named Mitsukoshi Hiromasa, using western steel. Apparently they were forge welded, but the exact nature of their construction is not known."

 

From Slough’s Reference on page 182:

“His real name is Miyaguchi Shigeru, and he was born in 1897. He was trained by his father Masatoshi, and also studied under Kasama Ikkansai Shigetsugu. In July 1933, he received an appointment as a master swordsmith for the Nihonto Tanren Kai and was given the Tosho name of Yasuhiro. Then in January 1937, he became head instructor for the Okura Tanrenjo. The founder of this forge was Baron Okura Kishichiro, which was located on the grounds of his estate. Yasuhiro applied the mei Ikkansai Kunimori on swords made at the Okura Tanrenjo. He passed away on March 21, 1956.”

 

My main question is:

Why are there no stamps indicating non-traditional methods (such as the Seki or Gifu stamps) on Kunimori signed blades if they were known to be made of yotetsu/yohagane/western steel?

 

If it was mandated by 1940, then why do we not see stamps on any of the Kunimori signed blades? Was the lack of stamping an indicator that it was common knowledge that the “Kunimori line” (so to speak), was made with steel other than tamahagane, therefore not requiring or exempt from a stamp? Or was the “Kunimori” used as the stamp? I have not found any information about this aspect.  Does anyone have any information on this subject and if so, could you please help me or point me in the right direction?

 

Thank you for any help,

Mark

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Hello:

I don't think that it is an issue of Western steel for after all Nanban-tetsu was proudly proclaimed on nakago in Shinto times, and such highly regarded smiths as Hayama Enshin are thought to have incorporated the same in late Meiji times. It may have been that Kunimori blades were simply sorted out from the truly traditional blade of Yasuhiro by being failed at shinsa in post war times. In the olden days when oshigata helpers were needed at the Yoshikawa NTHK shinsa I saw several Kunimori pink papered by Koen sensei, as nice looking as the blades were. Why no stamps I have no idea; by signing that way he was in sort of a gray zone I suppose.

Arnold F.

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Arnold----

 

Thank you for your insight.  I agree that nanban-tetsu was proudly used by some smiths and from some of the sources I’ve read, it apparently was not easy or cheap to acquire. (I actually have a Ki Masayoshi special order blade made with nanban-tetsu from 1818.)  I also agree that the use of western steel does not make a sword worthless in my own humble opinion. However, I get the impression when I read about the Kunimori signed blades that most collectors view them as the quote goes, “they were made of western steel and inferior to the Yasukuni made blades.” Maybe it’s just me and I am getting the wrong impression, but whenever I read a current discussion about Kunimori signed blades the reaction seems to be negative and the responses are either it’s inferior due to the use of western steel or because it was made by another smith (Mitsukoshi Hiromasa). If the argument is that these Kunimori blades are not Miyaguchi Toshihiro/Yasuhiro’s own work and therefore not as desirable as blades made and signed by his own hand, I understand that argument and agree. But to imply that these Kunimori blades are “inferior” to other swords made with similar materials seems to be extreme, especially if some of these blades were indeed made by his students—some of whom went on to be Mukansa rated smiths.

 

And here lies the confusion for me, if these Kunimori signed blades were indeed known to be made with western steel then why no stamp indicating such? If other smiths were required to have a stamp indicating the use of non-traditional methods, then why did Miyaguchi Toshihiro/Yasuhiro not use a stamp if it was required by law?  

 

Quote:

It may have been that Kunimori blades were simply sorted out from the truly traditional blade of Yasuhiro by being failed at shinsa in post war times. In the olden days when oshigata helpers were needed at the Yoshikawa NTHK shinsa I saw several Kunimori pink papered by Koen sensei, as nice looking as the blades were.”

 

Arnold, I think you are absolutely right about the shinsa failing the Kunimori blades having a major effect on “sorting out” these from traditional blades. I think it also created a self-fulfilling prophecy in that over time all of the Kunimori blades got lumped into one big batch and labeled as being non-traditional and made by the smith Mitsukoshi Hiromasa—whether they were or not.  Where in actuality, like most things there are probably exceptions to that generalization. Fast forward and here we are today saying all Kunimori signed blades fall into this category of non-traditional methods, when we should be looking at each individual sword and letting the blade speak for itself instead of using only the signature to judge quality---because that is what is easy.

 

Thanks again for your input.

 

Mark

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Hello Mark:

The abstracts alone that you have gathered and the alternatives you have mulled over are useful and I will print off to put in my file of a very early Shrine made Yasuhiro that I have. I am as curious as you are as to just what separated Kunimori and Yasuhiro in a shinsa context. If steel source were the determinant it would have to be made not entirely of but incorporated I would guess as particularly after 1941 Western steel would have been somewhat hard to come by.

Just to add little first person story, I was "working", which of course was a great pleasure, at one of the shinsa and a friend came over with a Kunimori that Koen sensei had pinked. He could not believe it and thought some mistake had been made. So he asked if I would run it through a little later under my name which I did. I was watching it progress along to Mr. Yoshikawa and when he got ahold of it he looked around with a twinkle in his eye to see the joker - I don't believe he would have known us by names - and at once grabbed for another pink paper, then off to the next blade. That sort of thing happened more than once I am pretty sure with blades associated with smiths who actually worked at the Yasukuni Shrine and also did side work with another name. If Chris Bowen would care to chime in here in greater detail it would doubtless help.

Arnold F.

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Arnold--

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing your personal experience about working at shinsa, I imagine that was an incredible experience. It is very interesting that you have first-hand experience of a Kunimori blade getting a pink paper, I am glad you mentioned that detail. Do you happen to remember whether or not that particular sword was signed “Miyaguchi Kunimori” or “Ikkansai Kunimori”?

 

 

Also, you had mentioned your interest in Yasuhiro research and your early Yasukuni made blade. I will send you a PM with some info.

 

 

Yes I agree that Chris Bowen is incredibly knowledgeable and could most likely shed some light on the subject. Talking to him is what initially got me started into this very informal research. I’m the caretaker of a blade signed Ryujin Kuniteru and due to the similarities with Yasuhiro I contacted Chris and asked his opinion. Best guess at the moment is that Ryujin Ikkansai Kuniteru was one of Yasuhiro’s students while at Baron Okura’s forge. As this smith is unlisted I thought the best course of action was to research Yasuhiro and concentrate on his post Yasukuni time.

 

 

Thanks again,

 

 

Mark

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  • 1 year later...

It's almost two years to the day since this topic was initiated. So I am wondering if there has been any new information on this much documented sword Smith. 

In particular, with relation to whether any have been papered. In light of the recent papering of Koa Isshin swords, I wonder. I still class Kunimori swords as Gendai-to, as they have the attributes, and NO stamps! 

No doubt when Kunimori made swords in the Yasukuni Shrine, they are regarded as nihonto. 

Any thoughts or information would be appreciated. 

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Seeing as Yoshikawa Koen passed away many years ago and the NTHK then split in two different groups.  I wonder now with more information that has come forth ( WW11 swords in general) , if pinking would still occur?   Also, has anyone ever submitted a Kunimori to the NBTHK?

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These are all great points. I am curious as well if there have been any Kunimori blades submitted and the results. Out of the 16 examples I found in open source there are zero examples that were papered. Unfortunately the examples I found were mostly of the nakago and mei, there were very few pictures of the blades themselves and it was impossible to tell anything about the hada, hamon or kissaki. I will be the first to admit I’m a novice at research and Nihonto in general, so take my opinions for what they are.

 

Neil brings up a good point that the Kunimori blades lack any stamp indicating that they were made by non-traditional methods. Why no stamp if it was mandated by law? The references to Yasuhiro after leaving the Yasukuni Shrine were that he was working at Okura Forge, where “fine military blades were made.” Not much else is said about his post Yasukuni time. Why not? For such a well documented smith there seems to be little info for this time.

 

When I first began looking into this subject, I was under the impression that all Kunimori signed blades were the same. Now, I think there are subgroups of blades signed Kunimori and I’ll explain why. We must keep in mind that there are basically two different Kunimori signatures: the blades signed Miyaguchi Kunimori and then those signed Ikkansai Kunimori. These are clearly differentiating the blades otherwise why the different signatures. Ikkansai Kunimori signed blades give a location where they are made, whereas Miyaguchi Kunimori do not.

 

What if the Miyaguchi Kunimori signed blades were the ones made with western steel and the Ikkansai Kunimori signed blades were made by Yasuhiro’s students with traditional materials and methods? As time passed now all Kunimori signed blades are regarded as being made with western steel whether they actually are or not. Just a thought.

 

The short of it is I think Yasuhiro used the signature as an indicator of quality, materials used, where it was made and also who made it. It is documented that other smiths used variations in kanji and signatures to indicate similar things so I believe it feasible that Yasuhiro did the same thing. For example, in addition to the different Kunimori signatures (Miyaguchi Kunimori and Ikkansai Kunimori) note the way in which the kanji for Kuni varies in the signatures. I believe this is also an identifier. There are two basic types of Kuni kanji I see repeated in the signatures. Interestingly this Kuni variant is seen in other blades signed by Yasuhiro including the Ryujin Ikkansai Kuniteru and Ryujin Kuniteru signed blades.

 

Personally I think that until we can find a correlation between the different Kunimori signatures (Ikkansai and Miyaguchi) and the hada, hamon, and materials used— it will be difficult to separate the truth from tainted information being repeated. With the kanji variation on Kuni being consistent across multiple signatures (Ikkansai Kunimori, Miyaguchi Kunimori, Ikkansai Kuniteru, etc) there is some identifier clearly attached to it, but is as of yet unknown. Hopefully there will be some submitted to shinsa so that more examples can be examined.

 

More study is needed clearly. It would be interesting to see good quality pictures of the blades to start comparing quality of the steel with that of the mei.

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  • 1 year later...

These swords were not made in Gifu and were not issued through Seki. They were not issued by thr military either. That explains at least why those particular stamps are not found on Ikkansai Kunimori's signed blades although they are non-traditionally made.

 

Private production = no stamp

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1 hour ago, Bruno said:

not made in Gifu and were not issued through Seki.

That's a very good point, Bruno.  I've been so focused on blades WITH stamps that I haven't spent any time considering blades without them being showato, simply made in prefectures not governed by the Seki guilds/associations.  *sigh*  This means I'm going to have to go through the Showa files looking at each smith to see if there are any showa-stamped blades from smiths outside the Seki domain. 

It is worth investigating as I've recently re-read an old statement made by one of the smith's that the Showa stamp was put on by the Army while the Seki stamp was from the Association.  If I can find a significant number of non-Seki smiths with Showa stamps it would confirm the claim.

 

But to your original point, I think you are right.  Blades sold privately to individuals or shops wouldn't have gone through either the Seki Assoc. or Army inspection process.  So lack of stamping is not a guarantee the blade is gendaito.

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Yes Bruce I think other blades forged to be sold for civilian only, have no stamp (not only those signed Ikkansai Kunimori). Among them there were gendaito and showato, issued without any stamp in both cases.

 

Seeing that even the NBTHK does not seem to know what they are talking about regarding WW2 era swords, I might be quite hard to spot others non traditionally made showa-to made in the same purpose. 

 

What leads me to think that all high end WW2 era swords will be considered by default as gendaito when having no stamp. Which is a problem of course.

 

Interesting...

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On my journey of discovery of Ikkansai KUNIMORI (AKA YASUHIRO), it is noted that he produced swords at one of two highly rated forges. And to add to his credentials, he was trained by Masatoshi and Ikkansai Shigetsugu. 

As YASUHIRO at the YASUKUNI Nihonto Tanren Kai, and was highly rated as a nihonto sword smith. 

And as KUNIMORI when he produced swords at (and was head instructor) the Okura Tanrenjo, on the estate of Baron Okura Kishichiro. 

I would doubt that at either establishment would he make Showa knockouts, hence no stamps. Not only the prestigious establishments in which he worked, his pride as Head Instructor, but his lineage through Masatoshi, and his through his mentor Shigetsugu, would make it below his dignity to make run of the mill knockouts. 

So maybe the NBTHK has also studied the work and pedigree of KUNIMORI/YASUHIRO, and considered that his swords are in fact Gendaito and worthy of being papered as such. 

So if a sword exhibits hada, hamon, habuchi, hataraki the features of traditionally made blades, regardless of the steel used (and remember Western Steel has been used on Nihonto for centuries), and it is nigh on impossible to tell what steel is used, I guess the NBTHK will deem it traditional.    

 

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7 hours ago, Bruno said:

Yes Bruce I think other blades forged to be sold for civilian only, have no stamp (not only those signed Ikkansai Kunimori). Among them there were gendaito and showato, issued without any stamp in both cases.

 

Seeing that even the NBTHK does not seem to know what they are talking about regarding WW2 era swords, I might be quite hard to spot others non traditionally made showa-to made in the same purpose. 

 

What leads me to think that all high end WW2 era swords will be considered by default as gendaito when having no stamp. Which is a problem of course.

 

Interesting...

How are you coming to this extreme conclusion? You need some proof before claiming a trusted expert organization is full of clueless dolts.

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Bruce and Bruno, I think SLOUGH probably answers a lot of your concerns, where he will often list a sword smith say, "Low to Medium Grade Showato" and with it "Medium to Hign grade Gendaito". Showing that both can be made by the same sword smith, depending on the circumstance and customer. On page 56, KANENORI is an example. He would also list (for example) YOSHIMUNE on page 198, as a "High to Superior Grade GENDAITO", and I have held a papered YOSHIMUNE and it is definitely a Gendaito. 

There are always exceptions to the rule, but it is wrong to generalize. 

So Bruce, it boils down to the sword in hand, and not generalities. There are WW2 swordsmiths who get papered based on the sword in Shinsa, there are others that get "Pinked", depends on the sword.  

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I was discussing recently about Ikkansai Kunimori with Chris Bowen. Here is what he believes:

 

 

 

"Well, here is my take on this matter...

 

1. It is well known that Miyaguchi's Kunimori signed blades are made of Western steel. This is noted in period literature such as in Fujishiro's Shinto Hen, a long respected reference.

 

2. I have been told directly by Miyaguchi's son, who became a respected smith, that Mizukoshi Mitsuhiro, a former student of Miyaguchi, produced these Kunimori (Protect the Country) blades as part of a business venture to meet the demand for swords at the time as well as a way to help his student establish himself financially. The son was explict- Mizukoshi made the blades, Miyaguchi received them in bundles and he signed them one after another while his son held them down, as is customary. You can't get more compelling evidence.

 

3. As for the NBTHK, their focus has always been on older swords. They would rarely if ever paper WWII era blades until rather recently. When I first moved to Japan, I would ask them all sorts of questions about WWII smiths and sword making and they almost always referred me elsewhere because they did not know the answers to my questions. I have spoken with several NBTHK shinsa team members over the years and they freely admitted that these swords are, in their words, a "blind spot". People who haven't been behind the curtain live with this fantasy that the NBTHK is some sort of sword omniscient monolith that knows everything and is never in error. The truth is it's just a group of people doing their jobs as best they can as in any quasi-governmental agency. They don't know everything and they are not always right. In the later years before I left Japan, when WWII swords started to become a thing, they would actually refer questions about WWII swords to me!

 

4. As always, refer to the blades themselves. I have seen dozens of the these Kunimori mei blades. Well made they are, but they have all looked oil quenched.

 

Many years ago I stated that star stamped blades were traditionally made. People who have never been to Japan, can't speak or read the language, have never spent as much as a single minute talking with WWII smiths and people with direct first hand knowledge, who wouldn't know an oil quenched blade from one quenched in water, came out and challenged my statements. Oh, the NBTHK would never paper a stamped blade, regardless they claimed, until l submitted a star stamped blade and it passed as Hozon. They wouldn't accept the WWII army documents, the literature citing, etc.

 

This looks and smells like the same thing: people with little to no knowledge who have done zero real research blindly claiming that if the NBTHK papered something, it must be the real deal. This is what is known as an "appeal to authority" (argumentum ad verecundiam), It's a fallacious argument used to support an opinion when one has no real evidence.

 

Bruno, I have done my homework, I am very comfortable with the results of the thousands of hours I have spent with WWII smiths, period Japanese literature, etc. I really don't put any stock at all in what people with nothing but blind faith believe. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you can't always convince everyone. There are still people who believe the Earth is flat, after all....

 

Edit :

 

mistake corrected - the smith who made these blades was Mizukoshi Hiromitsu. I typed it backwards. Maybe you can edit your post. These blades were made by Mizukoshi, not at the Okura Tanrenjo, but in Mishima, Shizuoka, were I lived for 13 years! They are, at best, daisaku regardless of construction and for that reason alone aren't considered on the same level as Miyaguchi's own work. Western steel is normally not water hardening- it cracks too easily. When quenched in oil, it does not produce significant, if any, nie. This is usually the giveaway. If forged/folded, they can certainly have hada, and oil quenching produces a nioiguchi specifically. These are not dis qualifiers in any sense! Western steel was used because it was easier to get than tamahagane, cheaper, and easier to work with. It was quenched in oil which results in less cracking than tamahagane in water. It allowed smiths to make swords faster, easier, and more cheaply. Exactly what the war effort demanded. And by the way, one shouldn't take the term "Western steel" literally- it simply means steel made using western, not traditional Japanese (tatara) methods.

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It is obvious many of these Ikkansai Kunimori signed swords are made of western steel and oil quenched but to say they all are without any exceptions is ludicrous. What is YOUR opinion on these Bruno? It's all well and good to ask Chris what he thinks (nevermind the exact same information was already being posted at the start of the thread, he must be getting tired of having to repeat himself...!) but how about contributing something new to the discussion?

 

Do you think this one is without a doubt oil quenched? Maybe just 'one' real blade slipped through the cracks while the Baron wasn't looking: http://www.nihonto.us/IKANSAI KUNIMORI TACHI JP.htm

 

@SteveM did you have more pictures of the papered blade we can see?

1552947585_joepgendaito012432.thumb.JPG.39ac28b49e6851226a2978d6245c0cf9.JPG

414069557_kinmichijp017.thumb.JPG.d97a342896188f47ff39a128831f8e3a.JPG

IKANSA9.thumb.jpg.84197a75548fe3892588a36d4fc37042.jpg

IKANSA8.thumb.jpg.a1b304645607b15cc2702d6e1ce7fffe.jpg

690768418_joepgendaito014449.JPG.d638c0a12f63b82ee911485e1f16e997.JPG1237958753_joepgendai006435.JPG.850f0f92f3419c971d75669a4d2d4d60.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

It is obvious many of these Ikkansai Kunimori signed swords are made of western steel and oil quenched but to say they all are without any exceptions is ludicrous. What is YOUR opinion on these Bruno? It's all well and good to ask Chris what he thinks (nevermind the exact same information was already being posted at the start of the thread, he must be getting tired of having to repeat himself...!) but how about contributing something new to the discussion?

 

Do you think this one is without a doubt oil quenched? Maybe just 'one' real blade slipped through the cracks while the Baron wasn't looking: http://www.nihonto.us/IKANSAI KUNIMORI TACHI JP.htm

 

@SteveM did you have more pictures of the papered blade we can see?

1552947585_joepgendaito012432.thumb.JPG.39ac28b49e6851226a2978d6245c0cf9.JPG

414069557_kinmichijp017.thumb.JPG.d97a342896188f47ff39a128831f8e3a.JPG

IKANSA9.thumb.jpg.84197a75548fe3892588a36d4fc37042.jpg

IKANSA8.thumb.jpg.a1b304645607b15cc2702d6e1ce7fffe.jpg

690768418_joepgendaito014449.JPG.d638c0a12f63b82ee911485e1f16e997.JPG1237958753_joepgendai006435.JPG.850f0f92f3419c971d75669a4d2d4d60.JPG

 

"the Kunimori tachi shows no nie" to Chris so oil quenched, western steel. 

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Also from Chris:
 
The book is titled: Shizuoka Ken no Gendai Tosho to sono Saku To ni Tsuite (Shizuoka Prefecture's Modern Sword smiths and the Swords They Made) published in Showa 44 by Kawaguchi Hiroshi, a university professor and resident of Shizuoka Prefecture. An oshigata of one of Mizukoshi tosho's swords which was made in Showa 19; compare the workmanship to the Kunimori blades. Also, a photo of text which lists Miyaguchi's 3 mei: Toshihiro (used for top class, special order blades), Yasuhiro (2nd class blades), and Kunimori (used for blades made of Western steel).
 
 
239345813_532540047827391_37241539179211
 
240600039_1216741728800828_3715948467216
 
240681898_956419181868272_59721018809919
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  • 8 months later...

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/22613.html

 

Western steel? This was an interesting thread. I'd think it a bit cheeky to make a tanto for the birth of the Crown Prince and use western steel.

I'm here entirely to learn. As most know, I'm 97.5% fittings centric.

This all came to my nose while researching a special tsuba made around the same time.

Tantou [Ikkansai_Kunimori](Yasukuni Sword Maker)(The sword by which His Imperial Highness the Crown Prince is born commemoration)

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Hello Curran,

 

Very nice commemorative tanto, but not made for the imperial family.

 

Actually  on the picture, there appears to be no hada and there is no nie so it certainly looks like an oil quenched western steel blade.

 

In the Taisho and early Showa period, many smiths were using western steel because tamahagane was very hard to get- Yoshichika, Minamoto Kanenori, Hayama Enshin, all used western steel in this era. Using western steel was not disrespectful for them 

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