Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Here is a few more

Thank you Trystan!  Any chance of getting links to the owners/sellers?  I could use the flip-side of every one of those nakago.  Plus, the '43 TE 305 is "W/M" stamped, but I cannot read the stamped number above it.  That blade is probably a non-Koa and should have a Nan on the other side.

 

@Kiipu and Trystan- I just realized, looking at the chart that the "M 61" is an overlap into 1939, as there is an "N 574" in 1939; or I should say the '39 is an overlap to the '38 lettering.  As such, we should someday expect to see an "M" numbered blade in '39 as well.

 

Also, to your list, Thomas, there are "V" "W" numbers on file for '39:

1939

N 574-S

V 18-S

V 33-S

W 38-S

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thank you Trystan!  Any chance of getting links to the owners/sellers? 

Bruce

As I said, these are all the photos I've been provided. I asked already, no other photos, not my friend's swords, he just found photos for me from some old file he saved a long time ago.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

no other photos

Thanks good buddy, had to ask!

[BANGBANGSAN]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

 

@BANGBANGSAN, are there any other pictures of M61 available?  Sorry Bruce, I just had to ask first!

Thomas

Unfortunately, I do not have other photos,I would already post them if I have more. But for the 2 photos I have,lt looks like eBay seller ericowazamono's old sell，he  might still have photos of that sword in his data.Our member @Ontario_Archaeology just bought a 1938 Mantetsu N356 from him not long ago.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks good buddy, had to ask!

I asked him again if he can find more photos or details, he found one more photo （not full tang,I'm sorry)with 南 mark, and partial Mei shows it's not KOA he said it's 滿鐵鍛造之。

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu

One more from Matt’s shop

昭和壬午秋 1942 Autumn  マ 七八 Ma 78，it‘s the first 30 Series マ  found so far.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Trystan!  I actually have it's "sister" Ma 77 on file:

[BANGBANGSAN]

31 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Trystan!  I actually have it's "sister" Ma 77 on file:

I didn't see Ma 77 post on your chart though...

[Bruce Pennington]

Mantetsu Sword Serial Numbers

(4.2)

 

	A I U E O	KA KI KU KE KO	SA Shi SU SE SO	TA CHI TSU TE TO	NA NI NU NE NO	HA HI FU HE HO	MA MI MU ME MO	YA YI YU YE YO	RA RI RU RE RO	WA WI WU WE WO	Alpha Numeric Missing Kanji
1937
1938											C 17-S C 30-S H 14-A H 20-A M 61-A N 1-W N 71-W N 156-W N 182-W N 205-W N 206-W N 356-W N 377-W N 403-W N 408-W Unkn-S
1939	I 376-S I 466-S				NI 57-A NI 190-A NI 679-W	HA 24-A HO 123-W HO 125-W			RO 75-S RO 270-S		N 423-S N 574-S V 18-S V 33-S W 23- S W 38-S ? 122-W NoNmr-S NoNmr-W
1940				CHI 61-S CHI 66-S CHI 104-S CHI 128-S CHI 356-S CHI 801-? to 41-S to 374-S to 450-S to 562-S to 630-S to 729-S	NU 182-S NU 2XX-S NU 389-S NU 407-S NU 503-A NU 608-A NU 65?-A	HO 546-S			RI108-S RI 110-S RI 328-S RI 404-S RI 415-S RI 488-S RI 560-S RU 16-A RU 163-A RU 199-A	WA 20-S WA 33-A (waki) WA 73-A (waki) WA1840A Wo 433-S	? 57-A
1941		KA 89-S KA 228-S KA 232-S KA 236-S KA 238-S KA 275-S KA 353-S KA 405-S	SO 66-S SO 185-S SO 482-S SO 564-S	TA 181-S TA 287-S TA 298-S TA 277-S TA 305-S TA 313-S TA 336-S TSU 198-S TSU 254-S TSU 573-S TSU 575-S TSU 651-S	NA 5-S NA 124-S NA 184-S NA 232-S NA 354-S NA 377-S NA 484-S NE 2-S NE 144-S NE 347-S NE 384-S NE 396-S NE 401-S NE 414-S			YO 11 YO 57-S YO 122-S YO 150-S YO 234 YO 349-S YO 350-S YO 352-S	RE 6-S RE 153-S RE 193-S RE 413-S RE 476-S	WA 6 -S WA 134-S WA 158-S WA 238-S WA 638-S	? 218
1942	U 20-S U 70-S U 99-S U 255-S U 357-S U 414-S U 481-S U 593-S U 1593-S	Ku 327-A Ku 471-A Ku 466-A Ku 878-A Ku 897-A Ku1020a Ku1087a Ku1226a			NO 34-S NO 273-S NO 430-S NO 493-S NO 533-S		Mu 87-S Mu 89-S Mu555-S Mu595-S Mu637-S Mu705-S Ma 77-A Ma 78-A	YA 72-A YA 79-A YA 201-A YA 246-W YA 350-A YA 417-A YA 475-A YA 505-A YA 622-A YA 623-A YA 736-A YA 957-A YA1048-A	RA 7(?)-S RA 341-S RA 820-S RA 823-S RA 934-S RA 984-S RA1030-S RA1071-S RA1196-S RA 1256-S RA 1333-S RA 1356-S		? 26-S ? 345-S ? 744-S
1943	A 17-S A 65-S A 105-S E 537-S	KI 122-S KI 144-S KI 347-S KI 536-S KE 731-S KE 583-S KE 805-S KO 115-S	SA 1-S SA 52-S SA 361-S SA 459-S SA 520-S Shi 304-S	TE 71-S TE 224-S TE 284-S TE 305-S TE 337-S TE 486-S TE 567-S TE 595-S TE 699-S TE 801-S TE 835-S		HI 22-S HI 41-S HI 153-S HI 226-S HI 591-S FU 48-S FU 106-S FU 624-S FU 757-S FU 758-S FU 795-S FU1008-S FU1272-S FU 960-S FU 1196 FU 1385-S	Ma360-S Ma373-S Ma374-S Ma381-S Ma538-S MI 206-S MI 288-S MI 505-S ME 19-S ME 87-S	YU 115-S YU 209-S YU 367-S YU 432-S YU 479-S YU 543-S		WE 299-S WE 494-S	? 76 ?276 ? 330-S ?361 ?624-S KA 242-S A 601-S
1944	(I) 526-S (I)1644-S		SU 10-S SU 18-S SU 219-S SU 273-S SE 1029-S SE 1066-S SE 1143-S SE 1225-S SE 1251-S SE 1293-S SE 1310-S SE 2409-S SE 2430-S SE 2575-S SE 2596-S SE 2767-S			HI 1155-S	Mo104-S Mo228-S Mo799-S				? 45 ?199 SU 615-S
1945	I 28 i 67-S i 90-S I 142 i 213-S i 289-S i 449-S i 622-S i 1170
Unkn year				CHI 475		FU 594	MA 313	YA 72	RA 296

·       Note: ALL CAPS – KATAKANA; lower case – hiragana.

·       The seasons are abbreviated as indicated below.

-S Spring	-R Summer	-A Autumn	-W Winter
春 haru Spring	夏 natsu Summer	秋 aki Autumn	冬 fuyu Winter

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington@Kiipu

It seems we might found the meaning of 南 and 連/連工 mark .南 means the blade was made in 南満陸軍造兵廠本廠,and the 連/連工means the blade was made in 南満陸軍造兵廠大連製造所軍刀工場.

http://ohmura-study.net/205.html

From Ohmura

南満陸軍造兵廠は、昭和13年6月「南満工廠建設要綱」が決まり、同年8月、陸軍造兵廠南満工廠※の編成が決定された。
奉天郊外の文官屯に約300万坪の敷地を有し、軍人・軍属12,000名、満人傭工等 数千人の規模だった。此処で将校用軍刀が製造された。
昭和20年4月、兵器行政本部から離れ、関東軍直轄の関東軍造兵廠となった。

製造軍刀の種類; 陸軍将校用軍刀、生産工場: 南満陸軍造兵廠本廠及び南満陸軍造兵廠大連製造所軍刀工場

生産期間  昭和19年10月～20年8月 (実際は昭和18年春より製造されている。たまたま特定期間が記載された事に注意)

 

[Bruce Pennington]

For the vast majority of us who don't read Japanese, what Trystan is showing us is a discussion Ohmura had on that link about the Mantetsu operation. 

Of the Ren stamp, Ohmura states:

Nanman Army Arsenal inspection mark "Nan". inspection mark "Nan".※   Ren stamp: Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory inspection mark. "Ren"   Ohmura's discussion: "For Nanman Army Arsenal, organization was determined in August,1938.  It had the site of about 9.917 K㎡ in Wenguantun of the Mukden suburbs. And 12,000 persons in all belonged the military man and the army civilian employee to this arsenal. And thousands of Manchu operatives worked. Nanman Arsenal was included in Kantō-Gun and turned into Kantō-Gun Arsenal in April, 1945. From the spring of 1943, an officer's Guntō was made from Nanman Arsenal and Nanman Arsenal Dalian Factory. The blade with the stamp of "Nan" and "Ren" receives the impression that Nanman Army Arsenal made with Mantetsu's introduction of technological know-hows uniquely. However, probably, these blades were dedicated by Nanman Arsenal with semimanufactured goods from Mantetsu, when they were guessed from the Mei of "Mantetsu Kore o Tanzō". The truth is still a mystery. "   So, at the end, even Ohmura was uncertain of the implications.   My first question is - what is meant by "Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory"?  The Nanman Army Arsenal was not located in Dalian.  SMR was.  So, if they are calling the SMR operation at Dalian a Nanman factory, then the Ren stamped blades were made by SMR not Nanman arsenal.    As to Nanman making blades, we know for a fact that they were polishing blades at Nanman in '44 and '45.  Is that because they were making the blades there, or because SMR was sending them unfinished blades as they were doing for Tokyo 1st Arnsenal?  Not all '43 and '44 blades have the stamps.  Why?  Were the non-stamped blades made at SMR and the stamped ones at Nanman?   Another factor is that the Nan-stamped blades were all in '43 and the first two lines of '44, then they stop, and the Ren stamp appears after that:   If the Ren-stamped blades were made in Dalian (SMR), why did the Nanman arsenal (Nan stamps) stop?   In the end we may find that Ohmura's hypothesis is correct and logical explanations will appear answering the questions.  But for now, my speculative opinion is that SMR was making blades the whole time.  In '43, they taught Nanman smiths how to make Mantetsu blades and their production enhanced the quotas required of SMR.  The Army likely assigned Nanman Arsenal supervisory authority over the whole SMR operation and the Nan stamp was in use.  By '44, they established an office to specifically oversee the Dalian factory, hence the Ren stamp.  It still doesn't explain why the Nan stamp disappeared after the appearance of the Ren stamp though.  So, like Ohmura said, it's still a mystery to me.

[BANGBANGSAN]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

For the vast majority of us who don't read Japanese, what Trystan is showing us is a discussion Ohmura had on that link about the Mantetsu operation. 

Of the Ren stamp, Ohmura states:

Nanman Army Arsenal inspection mark "Nan". inspection mark "Nan".※   Ren stamp: Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory inspection mark. "Ren"   Ohmura's discussion: "For Nanman Army Arsenal, organization was determined in August,1938.  It had the site of about 9.917 K㎡ in Wenguantun of the Mukden suburbs. And 12,000 persons in all belonged the military man and the army civilian employee to this arsenal. And thousands of Manchu operatives worked. Nanman Arsenal was included in Kantō-Gun and turned into Kantō-Gun Arsenal in April, 1945. From the spring of 1943, an officer's Guntō was made from Nanman Arsenal and Nanman Arsenal Dalian Factory. The blade with the stamp of "Nan" and "Ren" receives the impression that Nanman Army Arsenal made with Mantetsu's introduction of technological know-hows uniquely. However, probably, these blades were dedicated by Nanman Arsenal with semimanufactured goods from Mantetsu, when they were guessed from the Mei of "Mantetsu Kore o Tanzō". The truth is still a mystery. "   So, at the end, even Ohmura was uncertain of the implications.   My first question is - what is meant by "Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory"?

南」　南満陸軍造兵廠　　　　　　　"Nan" Nanman Army Arsenal     「連」　南満陸軍造兵廠大連製造所　　"Ren" Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory.

It seems 関東軍 made some changes after took over 南満陸軍造兵廠 on April 1944. MRS fitting Mantetsu all have the 連 連工 mark.

1）工程: 刀身 ； 満鉄撫順製鉄所製純鉄を心棒として高炭素鋼の筒中に挿入鍜伸、荒砥ぎ、熱処理、仕上げ砥ぎ
　　　　　　その他； 外装、鍔付け、握り付け、鞘入れ、刀緒付け

1) Process: Sword blade; Inserted into a high carbon steel cylinder using pure iron manufactured by Mantetsu Fushun Steel Works as a mandrel.
Others; fitting, Tsuba, Tsuka, scabbard, sword tassel
They only mention the inserted steel was from Fushun Steel Works, but not say if the 皮鉄(outer steel?) are the same. If they use different 皮鉄 then the blade is not the same as earlier Mantetsu.

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It seems 関東軍 made some changes after took over 南満陸軍造兵廠 on April 1944. MRS fitting Mantetsu all have the 連 連工 mark.

Interesting observation.  There was definitely a transition.  Here are the MRS gunto I have on file

 

1938 N156 (only the SMR logo)

1944 Se 1029 Ren at top of nakago

1944 Se 1143 Ren at top

1944 Se 1310 Ren at top

1944 Se 2430 連工

1944 Se 2575 連工

1944 Su 10 連工

1944 (?) 199 連工

1945 い 142 (not viewed, no full photo)

1945 い 1170 no stamps, full views

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting observation.  There was definitely a transition.  Here are the MRS gunto I have on file

 

1938 N156 (only the SMR logo)

1944 Se 1029 Ren at top of nakago

1944 Se 1143 Ren at top

1944 Se 1310 Ren at top

1944 Se 2430 連工

1944 Se 2575 連工

1944 Su 10 連工

1944 (?) 199 連工

1945 い 142 (not viewed, no full photo)

1945 い 1170 no stamps, full views

 

My 1944 Se 1066 Also has連 at top

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Right!  I was just listing the ones with MRS fittings above.  Here are the Ren blades I have on file:

連

1944 セ 1029 1944 セ 1066 1944 セ 1143 1944 セ 1310

 Is 1066 in MRS fittings?  My photos on file just show the rounded tsuba, but no fittings.

 

 

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Right!  I was just listing the ones with MRS fittings above.  Here are the Ren blades I have on file:

連

1944 セ 1029   1944 セ 1066   1944 セ 1143   1944 セ 1310

 Is 1066 in MRS fittings?  My photos on file just show the rounded tsuba, but no fittings.

 

 

 

 

Yes,it is in RS mount，I posted it before, here you go.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

here you go.

Excellent, thanks Trystan!  I've updated my files on that one.

[BANGBANGSAN]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Excellent, thanks Trystan!  I've updated my files on that one.

Bruce

Here is an unusual one that has wavy Hamon
昭和甲申春 興亞一心 滿鐵作 strangely with NO Ser# on nakago,says in Shirasaya ,but not photo of the mount.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I saw that one on ebay a year ago.  I have it on file as a "possible fake" because I'm not comfortable with some of the writing, and the lack of number.  There are a few wavy blades on file, but they all have numbers.  Could this one have been a custom order?  If so, it might explain the more stylish writing.  That's why I haven't totally ruled it out of the survey files.  Here is the photo of the shirasaya:

 

I also have a '39 Koa that was cut down to a waki with no number.  So, this one could be legit, and a custom order, maybe.

Here's the waki:

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another from yahoo.jp auctions, no pictures of the serial number. There is some Kanji on the Tsuba, wonder what it says?  https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/u1035189279

 

 

Kanji on Tsuba:

[Stephen]

Have you translation of tsuba kanji?

Pretty cool.

[Stephen]

Wow from first look to looking again it had doubled in price. Type of ito i covet.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Stephen @PNSSHOGUN- I tried translating the page, but can't find a way to contact the seller for the serial number.  Do you know how?  I will do it if you can tell me where to click on the page.  I tried clicking his seller name, but that didn't give me a message option.

[Stephen]

Bruce, no way no how can you get buyee to help they will not contact sellers on yahoo.

Maybe request help from a buyer registered on Yahoo. He might be able to connect with seller. I think we have a member or two who bids on yahoo.

[Stephen]

https://account.edit.yahoo.co.jp/signup?.src=auc&.done=https%3A%2F%2Fpage.auctions.yahoo.co.jp%2Fjp%2Fauction%2Fu1035189279&referrer=mhd_menu_reg#

 

Maybe try to register yourself.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Tried.  The first step is my cell number, but it doesn't work, likely because they're expecting a Japanese phone number.

[Kiipu]

12 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Kanji on Tsuba:

 

The column on the right looks like 昭和十七年.

昭和十七年 = 1942.

[waljamada]

https://www.artswords.com/one_of_the_rarest_imperial_japanese_late_type_44_gunto_090718.htm

 

Hopefully not a repost but a Mantetsu blade with a stamp in interesting type 3 mounts I haven't seen before.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Adam, well spotted. Here are 2 of mine with Mantetsu blades. They are not Japanese made, but both the blade and Koshirae were made in China by the then Japanese controlled Manchurian Railway Company. Collectors now call them MRS swords. They are extremely rare with around a dozen documented. Both blades and Koshirae were made there from 1938. 

It is likely these swords were issued to the occupying Japanese troops in the freezing Manchurua province. 

The blades all have a nice MEI. and MUNE stamps.

These swords never made it to the Pacific War, hence none surrendered or captured. Nor are there surrender photos. 

For a long time, they wrongly referred to as Type 3 prototypes, or home defense swords.  

[waljamada]

Neil, love seeing the niche blades and learning the history behind them.  A very interesting pocket of the Mantetsu blades and love that they have a unique look to signify their historical place/time.