Come To Moma

[kissakai]

Hi

I bought two items from the same dealer that match (almost) items I already have

 

My whip from Marius

 

Received yesterday

 

Bought last years from an Arms and Armour Fair prior to restoration

 

After restoration by Ford Hallam and Kevin Adams

 

Received today

 

Just made my day

One question:

Would the kozuka be made by the same tsuba maker

 

 

Grev

 

 

[Geraint]

Hi Grev,

 

Nice!  In answer to your question look closely at the way the monkey masks are rendered, same guy do you think?

 

All the best.

[TETSUGENDO]

Grev,

 

Nice finds. If the  kozuka was made by the same maker I think he would have used the same attention to detail, so I would say not.  BTW, that tsuba restoration is terrifyingly good!

 

Cheers

[Andi B.]

Grev, haven't my kanji tables around - who made the saddle tsuba?

I have a similar unsigned piece, papered to Bushu Masakata...

[MauroP]

Hi Grev, the rendering of fur in the monkey is far better in tsuba, but the difference could be in the hands of Ford and Kevin. On the other hand the general setting (and even some details, see the nodes of the whip) point to the same workshop.

Regards, Mauro

[Bazza]

Grev,

 

Very interested to hear more details of the restoration.  What was the "black crud" on the surface of the tsuba before restoration??  The restoration is gobsmackingly good showing a real need for highly skilled restorers of tosogu.  Congratulations on acquiring some nice pieces.

 

BaZZa.

[kissakai]

Hi

Andy:

Mei - Choshu ju Kiyotaka 長州 住 清高

Saddle and whip (Kura and uma muchi)

Size: 69 x 66 x 4.9mm

 

Geraint

Yes I see they are not by the same maker. The tsuba has hair but the kozuka does not and the tsuba eyes are convex but the kozuka eyes are flat plus other points raised my Mauro- all the signs are there

 

BaZZa

The restorers are frightenly good

I can add the restoration details here but there is a six page spread in my '50 selected tsuba' book so I'll add a plug for my book:

 

Fifty Selected Tsuba from a Private Collection V2
eBook (PDF): £10.00 (excl. VAT)
Paperback: £20.00 (excl. VAT)

 

Link:

https://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=greville+cooke&type=

[Stephen]

Id like to see the process.

[TETSUGENDO]

Grev,

 

What was the purpose of the additions to the "monkey" tsuba?

[kissakai]

Obviously Ford & Kevin are not going to give away any hard earned exoertise but I did print what they allowed

The kozuka was bought as some sort of match and you never know I may find orther matching tosogu

[ROKUJURO]

Grev,

obviously a common theme in CHOSHU TSUBA!

[Andi B.]

Yes...

[kissakai]

Yes a comon theme as the two items go together

I know it is signed but it has a Kinai feeling about it

[RobertM]

I'm just trying to understand the tsuba prior to restoration. Is that copper plating that's worn away from an iron base?

[Stephen]

He wants us to buy his book to find out....lol.

[TETSUGENDO]

Shame on you Stephen, trying to steal proprietary secrets! LOL. BTW, it's not all that mysterious.......I think I'll just wait till the movie comes out.

 

-S-

[Stephen]

Patina recipes are rightly so private property but the process of removing the black areas I would like to know. To much to ask? I would think not but thats just me.

[TETSUGENDO]

Apparently!

 

-S-

[kissakai]

Just buy the book! No honestly there is not much info in the book but it is nice to see how good sensitive restoration can be

The details published were approved by Ford & Kevin

I think I'm right in saying Ford fothcoming book will have quite a bit of info re patination and metalugical info

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry for my tardiness in jumping in, chaps...

 

The black crud was simply an unusually thick oxide layer. This probably tells us the tsuba was subjected to a fair degree of heat, ( between 600 to 1000 degrees C) for an hour or more....most probably in a house fire.

 

When an oxide layer forms, by whatever mechanism, what happens is that the metal atoms/molecules on the surface bind with free oxygen and thereby become a new compound completely different from the underlying metal. As you might have experienced this layer, while now chemically quite different, can sometimes still be affixed to the metal quite firmly. There are a number of processes, chemical or mechanical (using pins and scalpels) conservators might use to eliminate these oxide layers.

 

In this case, the base metal being copper, I decided that the process needed to be very gentle so as to not mark the copper. I mixed a suitable pickle that would break down the oxide but leave the copper and other alloys present untouched.

 

Because the oxide layer was so thick, and had consumed so much of the copper surface, the original finish had been mostly eliminated. By examining what remained, under a microscope, I was able to 'see' enough to re-imagine the original finish though and that's what I got Kevin to re-apply. Well I wasn't going to spend a couple of days tapping away to recreate that dappled ground myself now, was I ?

 

Once the surface finish had been reapplied we enhanced the somewhat worn monkey face be carefully 're-drawing' the fur texture on.

 

And then it was a simple mater of developing the correct patina.

 

One thing I feel I need to reiterate with regard to the restoration work I carry out is that my reluctance to provide specific details of patina recipes (specifically with regard to restoration work) and the like is not due to my needing to be secretive. It's that each piece really has to be dealt with in it's own right and what I might do one one piece may very well be quite different on another that might seem to be similar, but where I recognise something different or where there are other factors to consider because of particular material combinations, ...there are all sorts of variables to evaluate.

 

And yes, my book contains a wealth of recipes and alloys and how to work with them. It is not, however, in any meaningful way, a manual for DIY restoration. I have absolutely no doubt, however, that my caution will be ignored.    But I'm always available to rescue botched amateur jobs, I merely add a Dunning-Kruger surcharge

[kissakai]

Ford

A nice and well thought out reply

I can't believe anyone would you your book as a amateur restorer - perish the thought 

I'd just like to say that the monkey tsuba after around 18 months the patina has turn a lovely mellowed colour as you said it would as you would expect been quite bright

 

 

 

Grev

[Jean]

BTW Ford, when will you be ready to deliver your book?

[Bazza]

Jean and mates, Ford's book will be ready when its ready!!!!  In my view the longer it takes the more good guff Ford will put in it.  I'm an editor myself in a small way and I know what it takes to get even my small 44-page magazine in A5 format to print, never mind a Magnum Opus such as Ford's...  Proof reading alone can consume many hours and often the first time a mistake is seen is when the finished product comes back in hundreds of copies from the printer!!!

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

Bazza, would be nice if we got it while we are still around though :rotfl:
It's been...what?....almost 4 years since we paid?
But yes...I will wait as long as it takes. Will be worth it.