Jump to content

Rai/ Niji Kunitoshi Question


Recommended Posts

I have been trying to do research on rai/niji kunitoshi and have a question. Niji kunitoshi has a toko taikan ranking of 2000 and a Hawley ranking of 200. Nihonto club's database says rai kunitoshi has a toko taikan ranking of 3500 and a Hawley ranking of 300, but some other sources say rai kunitoshi has the same toko taikan and Hawley rankings as niji kunitoshi. So does rai kunitoshi have a 3500 and 300 ranking, or 2000 and 200 ranking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There has been a debate for ever and a day as to whether this is one or two smiths. Until recently the strength of argument has been that they were two separate smiths. Current thinking seems to have moved the other way.  The reality is I think it unlikely we will ever really know. Certainly the style seen in the majority of niji Kunitoshi work differs considerably

from Rai Kunitoshi pieces. They are more flamboyant and generally look more powerful. This could be one man who suddenly decided to have a style change but if I had to bet on it I would marginally go for the two smith theory.

However with regard to the original question both of these smiths (oe one if it is only one) produced very high quality work. Both had some variation. A very good niji mei is head and shoulders above an average Rai Kunitoshi piece and vice versa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trend today is to consider these to be the same person.

 

https://yuhindo.com/ha/topics/traditions/

 

https://yuhindo.com/rai-kunitoshi-4/

The question was more focused on his toko taikan and Hawley ratings. Specifically for when he changed his style and signature. In particular nihonto club's database has 2 separate pages one for him one for when he signed kunitoshi and one for when he signed rai kunitoshi. What I in particular want to know is if his 3500 toko taikan ranking and his his 300 Hawley ranking for his later works still apply if they are the same person?

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KUN1408

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KUN1410

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph

Forgive me for deviating a little from your question in my original answer but coming back to it now can I ask why you are looking at such detail at Hawly ranking?

Don't misunderstand me he was a very fine scholar and 30 years ago his works were perhaps the best references available. However even then there were some serious questions regarding the accuracy of some of his entries and particularly his points system. I thought it had fallen out of use years ago but obviously not.

When comparing the two smiths it might prove better and more accurate to review examples in the NBTHK and NTHK journals which I think might give you a better comparison with regard to quality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph

Forgive me for deviating a little from your question in my original answer but coming back to it now can I ask why you are looking at such detail at Hawly ranking?

Don't misunderstand me he was a very fine scholar and 30 years ago his works were perhaps the best references available. However even then there were some serious questions regarding the accuracy of some of his entries and particularly his points system. I thought it had fallen out of use years ago but obviously not.

When comparing the two smiths it might prove better and more accurate to review examples in the NBTHK and NTHK journals which I think might give you a better comparison with regard to quality.

Is toko taikan still a good one to use? Also thank you for the information. I am in particular curious how rai kunitoshi compares to other swordsmiths of his era such as Masamune. Which is why I asked this question as I have no means to compare Sai jo saku swordsmiths of the same era.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s generally not advisable to try to reduce smiths to a scoreboard comparison. Looking at the NBTHK archives can give you a general picture in raw data, but there’s no shortcut to understanding a blade you’re looking at and putting it to some kind of context.

 

That takes lots and lots of time and study and experience, and it’s an ongoing process for all of us.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s generally not advisable to try to reduce smiths to a scoreboard comparison. Looking at the NBTHK archives can give you a general picture in raw data, but there’s no shortcut to understanding a blade you’re looking at and putting it to some kind of context.

 

That takes lots and lots of time and study and experience, and it’s an ongoing process for all of us.

Fair enough. I am new to this sort of thing so the rankings are all currently have to compare different swordsmiths. I was more curious as to what made him such a highly regarded swordsmith as I am currently having trouble finding info on his works when he signed rai kunitoshi. Any links to good sources would be helpful.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suggest you also read Darcy’s introduction to beginners about the different ranking systems and how to place them in context.

Check out yuhindo.com

 

In general, Hawley was relevant in its time but now there seem to be better references. There are some duplications, etc. People tend to refer to a combination of Toko Taikan rankings as well as Fujishiro rankings but also how well certain smiths do in NBTHK Juyo papering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this record on rai kunitoshi correct https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KUN1410? The thing that is currently confusing me about this is in this record his toko taikan 35 million yen but the record for when he would just sign kunitistoshi https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KUN1408 says its 20 million yen. Any sort of answer would be helpful as I currently can't find a place that sells toko taikan that has it in stock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As in all art determining value is a very complex and subjective thing. Rai Kunitoshi is regarded as one of the finest makers of tanto. Although not in the same league as Yoshimutsu, Shintogo Kunimitsu or Masamune he was pretty much up there and much sought after. As a result his tanto achieve high values. It is possible, or even likely that because of this the price of his long swords are pushed higher than they might otherwise be. If there are niji mei tanto they are much rarer (I haven't seen any) and they don't enjoy the same reputation, at least they haven't appeared in any references I have used as far as I can remember.

Another possible explanation if they are the same smith his niji mei work is earlier than his rai signed work and it may therefore be surmised that his later work is more refined and more mature/experienced.

For what it is worth of those long swords I have seen I much prefer the niji mei pieces but again that is totally subjective.

Unfortunately you cannot draw definitive conclusions about the merit of swords based on price valuations alone. It is like trying to produce a spreadsheet to determine whether Rubens was a better painter than Titian the true value is in what you see how it impacts your senses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph, may I suggest that you invest about $100 to buy the following references on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Connoisseurs-Book-Japanese-Swords/dp/1568365810/

https://www.amazon.com/Sword-Japan-Joseph-Bott/dp/1304242404/

https://www.amazon.com/Facts-Fundamentals-Japanese-Swords-Collectors/dp/1568365837/

https://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Sword-Handbook-John-Yumoto/dp/4805311347/

 

These books will give you a totally new outlook on the complex field of Nihonto, & you can start understanding how & why blades were made, rather than trying to judge their values, something that is subjective, at best.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph, may I suggest that you invest about $100 to buy the following references on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Connoisseurs-Book-Japanese-Swords/dp/1568365810/

https://www.amazon.com/Sword-Japan-Joseph-Bott/dp/1304242404/

https://www.amazon.com/Facts-Fundamentals-Japanese-Swords-Collectors/dp/1568365837/

https://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Sword-Handbook-John-Yumoto/dp/4805311347/

 

These books will give you a totally new outlook on the complex field of Nihonto, & you can start understanding how & why blades were made, rather than trying to judge their values, something that is subjective, at best.

Thank you the links. Do you know any place that sells English translated Nihon toko jiten for a decent price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a copy of Fujishiro's two-volume Nihon Toko Jiten for sale by Stephen not too long ago, but I don't see it now. Check with Grey Doffin, who usually has pretty much everything book-wise. Expect to pay about $300, & it's not a beginner's reference.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Masamune and Kunitoshi where not forging at the same time. masamune is late Kamakura circa 1328, Kunitoshi was working 1278/1288. Don’t compare as judgement are subjective. You must compare in same traditions and same time. All are rated Saijo saku.

You must also compared given blades. What can be true in general is not necessary true in particular.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Masamune and Kunitoshi where not forging at the same time. masamune is late Kamakura circa 1328, Kunitoshi was working 1278/1288. Don’t compare as judgement are subjective. You must compare in same traditions and same time. All are rated Saijo saku.

You must also compared given blades. What can be true in general is not necessary true in particular.

I must have used a wrong source.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph

You are getting a lot of ideas and opinions thrown at you (all with good intent) but please dont be put off. I think all we are trying to point out is that there is no straightforward quantative way to assess swords. Jean is absolutely right about needing to assess a blade against others of its tradition or period only then can you gauge its relative worth. We all have our own favourites some for technical reasons others for purely aesthetic.

The important thing is to look at as many examples of good swords as you can, decide what you like and then study some more to understand what it is you like about them.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...