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Okay, Now This Is Getting Scary!


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Hello Ken,

 

well, teh good thing is that if you don't spot it as a fake it won't disturb you :) Atleast the eBay prices are so low it causes no financial harm.  But once the blade gets papered it can be turned around for way more, causing much more  damage.

 

I have to admit that while I consider myself a slightly advanced newbie, I could be fooled, too. It just requires enough effort and everybody can be fooled. Infact some of these swords might be better (one day)  than some Japanese made ones in terms of quality like a fake Super dollar is superior to the real deal ... still it remains a fake of course.

 

So it is nice to have places like this one that do educate people.

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Sure, no real financial impact, but do we want to get these fakes permanently ensconced in the Nihonto stream? As I stated in the first post, until I looked really closely, I was positive that the blade was real, but I wasn't sure, & neither was my sword mentor who's been studying them for 60 years. Just goes to show that the Chinese can now duplicate pretty much anything!

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Well, I suppose it just continues the "tradition"  in a more gobal world ... There is a reason why it is said that it takes 1000 blades signed "Kotetsu" to find a real one ...

 

You have more fake Rolex than real ones available, still it does not prevent the collectors from admiring a real one.

 

I see it as a challenge.

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I understand that the collectors who are just starting out and do not have a frame of reference for what a Japanese sword looks like could easily taken by these. If the more advanced collectors are looking at this pieces though and have to ask themselves whether this is Chinese fake or just a poorly made Japanese sword, isn't the answer that the sword should not be purchased either way? Even if Changtian-Swords' merchandise is coming closer to authentic examples than what we have seen in the past, the quality is still generally very poor. Malformed sugata. Unappealing jitetsu, with long kitae-ware. Crooked bo-hi. Polish filled with foundation scratches. Lumpy, corroded nakago. Seeing stuff like this, shouldn't collectors want to run the other way?

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It is discouraging to potential new collectors.   Several years ago I considered starting a collection of ancient Greek Drachma coins, until I realized that the vast majority of ones out there are fake.  So I gave up the idea.

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I understand that the collectors who are just starting out and do not have a frame of reference for what a Japanese sword looks like could easily taken by these. If the more advanced collectors are looking at this pieces though and have to ask themselves whether this is Chinese fake or just a poorly made Japanese sword, isn't the answer that the sword should not be purchased either way? Even if Changtian-Swords' merchandise is coming closer to authentic examples than what we have seen in the past, the quality is still generally very poor. Malformed sugata. Unappealing jitetsu, with long kitae-ware. Crooked bo-hi. Polish filled with foundation scratches. Lumpy, corroded nakago. Seeing stuff like this, shouldn't collectors want to run the other way?

Well said. And this is exactly what I expressed, though I was scolded for it (not by Ray, of course, who is probably one of the nicest people on the internet).

 

Ironically, I am the “newer” collector, relatively speaking. I’m in my 30s, and my young collection at this point is a single Juyo katana and a few fittings that speak to me (on top of the appropriate library and regular in person study of high end blades).

 

And yet I was met with derision when I expressed the same sentiments as Ray (though less eloquently). I’m no Darcy, not even in the same universe, but he was run off this forum for essentially the same reason: speaking uncomfortable truths. My presence wouldn’t be missed but I know his is.

 

Given the dearth of new collectors coming into this hobby, I think this would be worth a bit of introspection on the part of our forum, in general.

 

These swords didnt fool me. They didn’t fool Ray. They wouldn’t fool any of the dealers who have a good reputation on this board. Avoiding eBay in favor of one of those fine gentlemen eliminates virtually all risk. Not sure why that’s controversial. We’re not curing cancer here, so I’ll leave it at that.

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 Avoiding eBay in favor of one of those fine gentlemen eliminates virtually all risk. Not sure why that’s controversial. We’re not curing cancer here, so I’ll leave it at that.

 

You are welcome to stay in your closet. But I don't want to be in there with you.

 

FYI: Ray also sells his blades on eBay like many honest collectors and dealers do. If you loose always blame yourself in the 1st spot and not the game.

 

Collecting is not just about puting 30k on a table and buying something with all the paper lameta. Collecting is a journey of passion and learning.

 

Collecting physical things is becoming an anachronistic thing in a more and more virtual world. There were times when probably any young boy would start collecting stamps and coins. Most will give up at a certain point as they get more interested in other things, but some keep on going. Do you know why way more people are still collecting coins and stamps than Nihonto? because it is probably just cheaper  to get in. If you limit collecting Nihonto to buying important blades then we have about 10.000 blades in circulation and the number of collectors will be way smaller than that number. Both limited by the available amount of coresponding swords but especially due to the lack of money.

 

How many people can afford to buy a Juyo blade? A smaller number than those who can afford to buy a 500, 1k or 2k blade ... how many of you have started in this hobby by buying an expensive dealer blade? That is usually the end of the road not thecstart. I started out buying a cheap 300 USD blade on eBay some 20 years ago after having done martial arts for some years when I was still a teenager. I believe a not too uncommon route for many collectors.

 

I believe that the larger part of new collectors would start out by making a fleamarket or online auction find for little money, looking into it, wanting to learn more and doing a google search, then joining a forum or fb group and starting from there.

 

What you suggest is like: hey, you enjoy eating? Don't go to wallmart and buy some food yourself and enter the risk of using your kitchen. Better go to some Bocuse place. That is not about cooking.

Therefore a fleabay market is good. It is good to have a variety of sources and different quality of swords.

 

Telling people to stay away from auction sites or other sources but a dealer is very narrow minded and an attitude that drives new collectors away ratherv than raising their numbers

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Come on Luis, that's not what I said at all. I did not say only buy juyo, and in no way did I denigrate blades with "lower" papers. That was not the point I was making. And I think we both know there's a difference between a $300 blade on eBay and one that's dishonestly trying to be something it's not. The fact is with a little patience and guidance one can spend the same for a piece of junk on eBay as a decent blade with recent Hozon papers through a reputable source. So why go swimming with sharks?

 

While it's true some dealers will only deal in blades that are expensive or of a certain level, most are happy to work with your budget if they make a reasonable return for their time and you're not in a huge rush as a customer. So please don't make this about something it's not. It's great that Ray sells on eBay, but that's neither here nor there because he's built a verifiable reputation.

 

When I got started I spoke with multiple dealers looking for guidance at a variety of price points, and all of them were happy to help in some way. I still keep in touch with most of them regularly to ask questions or check in.

 

This is not about Wal Mart vs. haute cuisine. It's not about cost. It's about common sense. Common sense doesn't have to be expensive. In fact, my point is that it will save time, money, and pain, especially for the inexperienced. It's fine for us to disagree, but please don't mischaracterize my statements.

 

I completely disagree that telling new folks to avoid eBay auctions drives them away. That's just not a provable statement, and if anything I'm a data point of one that proves the opposite.

 

 Clearly my comments touched some kind of nerve (maybe you sell a lot on eBay?), but there's no reason to take them personally. This will be my last comment on the matter.

 

 

 

You are welcome to stay in your closet. But I don't want to be in there with you.

 

FYI: Ray also sells his blades on eBay like many honest collectors and dealers do. If you loose always blame yourself in the 1st spot and not the game.

 

Collecting is not just about puting 30k on a table and buying something with all the paper lameta. Collecting is a journey of passion and learning.

 

Collecting physical things is becoming an anachronistic thing in a more and more virtual world. There were times when probably any young boy would start collecting stamps and coins. Most will give up at a certain point as they get more interested in other things, but some keep on going. Do you know why way more people are still collecting coins and stamps than Nihonto? because it is probably just cheaper  to get in. If you limit collecting Nihonto to buying important blades then we have about 10.000 blades in circulation and the number of collectors will be way smaller than that number. Both limited by the available amount of coresponding swords but especially due to the lack of money.

 

How many people can afford to buy a Juyo blade? A smaller number than those who can afford to buy a 500, 1k or 2k blade ... how many of you have started in this hobby by buying an expensive dealer blade? That is usually the end of the road not thecstart. I started out buying a cheap 300 USD blade on eBay some 20 years ago after having done martial arts for some years when I was still a teenager. I believe a not too uncommon route for many collectors.

 

I believe that the larger part of new collectors would start out by making a fleamarket or online auction find for little money, looking into it, wanting to learn more and doing a google search, then joining a forum or fb group and starting from there.

 

What you suggest is like: hey, you enjoy eating? Don't go to wallmart and buy some food yourself and enter the risk of using your kitchen. Better go to some Bocuse place. That is not about cooking.

Therefore a fleabay market is good. It is good to have a variety of sources and different quality of swords.

 

Telling people to stay away from auction sites or other sources but a dealer is very narrow minded and an attitude that drives new collectors away ratherv than raising their numbers

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The old question. What is collecting? What is art and what is worth to collect?

 

I remember a discussion about Koto and Shinto swords. And someone told me i must learn to think like an art collector and not like a stock trader. It depends on your taste and your moneybag. For me it would not be fun to have 2 swords, 35k each. And i would not call that a collection. ????

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What you suggest is like: hey, you enjoy eating? Don't go to wallmart and buy some food yourself and enter the risk of using your kitchen. Better go to some Bocuse place. That is not about cooking.

 

Although it most probably wasn't intended that way, it's actually a perfect allegory.

 

If I want to prepare a decent meal myself, I don't go to Wal-Mart to buy their low-cost low-quality ingredients, especially since they have been accused of food safety violations on a number of occasions.

 

If I want to enjoy some haute cuisine because I lack the skill to prepare it myself, don't have access to the ingredients, or simply don't feel like spending the entire day in the kitchen, I go to a classy restaurant.

 

If I can't - or don't want to - recognize the difference between a tv-dinner and a well-prepared dish, it doesn't matter anyhow: my stomach got filled one way or the other.

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And i would not call that a collection.

 

I know a few people who have a one sword "collection" in that price range (and above), and I only can congratulate them on their taste and quality. But you're right, buying many mediocre items without any direction isn't called collecting, it's called accumulating.

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...buying many mediocre items without any direction isn't called collecting, it's called accumulating.

It is a free world. You can call it whatever you want. But i think it is not ok to judge about the taste. And what you know about the quality of a collection you never have seen? ????

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This is going in circles. Some people again feel the urge to have the last say even when there is no point to be made.
This topic will be locked soon.
Btw Michael, I don't recall you being "met with derision" at any point at all....although sometimes people take one person's comments and go into victim mode and blame the entire forum.
I personally think a single juyo sword is a better collection than my entire humble collection of assorted stuff.
Oh, and people shouldn't comment about why others left unless they know the truth or the realities.

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As Brian says this is going in circles. What started with Ken pointing out the improvement in Chinese fakes being sold has expanded in to a debate about ebay, papering and the nature of collecting. Before it arrives at the inevitable locking that it seems to be rapidly heading to I would like to pick up on a couple of points

Michael- You mention your collection consists of one Juyo sword and books. Congratulations! It took me very many years to finally accept the "fewer is better" approach you have gone straight to it and saved yourselves years of frustration and heart ache. While I fully appreciate the "One sword can be a collection" philosophy mentioned by Guido I cant quite buy in to it. I have very few swords now but could I exchange these for just one? I honestly don't know. I guess for the right sword yes but I doubt it will ever be put to the test.

 

Luis your views about buying on eBay are far from unique. The reality is we are all grown ups (at least physically) and have to decide what is right for us and how we choose to collect. If you get a buzz from treasure hunting on EBay then go ahead. The problem comes when someone with little understanding buys something seeks an opinion here and when they don't hear what they want to hear either give up or decide to shoot the messenger. If you take risk buying something from an unreliable or at least unproven source then be prepared to live with the consequences if it goes wrong.

You can debate about the nature of collecting, the right way and wrong way and what makes a true collection for ever and a day and never reach agreement. You follow the path that suits you. But that doesn't make every other way wrong.

With regard to this sword papering I think that opens a whole new can of worms and remembering the amount of bad feeling generated when the NTHK originally split in to two and the criticism levelled at the NBTHK by some of these factions about inconsistency and even corruption I hope we do not see this spark another round of acrimony which will do neither party any credit. Someone made a mistake, it happens and in the environment of this type of event it can be seen how that might happen .The important thing is to recognise it and take whatever steps you can to ensure it isn't repeated. 

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I think the swords are currently in transit, Ken, so no images as yet. The owner on FB commented that he had been notified of a pass rather than having any details.

 

Have to say, the decision will make me question this organisation's papers from now on.

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I am the one that submitted the blade to the Shinsa and I will post the worksheet when I get it.  I was surprised it passed given the conversations here and on the FB group.  I bought it because I liked the hada and hamon and the nie I saw in the pics, not as an art piece, but more as a study piece since I like the activity in the metal that I see and I didn't have a blade in this style yet.

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Tim got back to me, he sent it via Mr Bowen, Im sure Chris had so many on his hands he did not have time to look it over. Maybe one of his helpers sent it thur.  From my experience after having a koto katsumitsu pass high with a hagiri only to receive a pink in the mail it will get caught before papers issued. 

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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