Diference Between Hoso Suguha / Ito Suguha?

[vajo]

Could me someone explain the difference between Hoso Suguha and Ito Suguha?

 

I actual look for some swords of the Naminohira school and sometimes it is written hoso suguha and others write ito suguha.

 

My understanding ist that ito suguha is a very, very thin suguha (sometimes it seems no hamon visible).

And hoso is a small suguha.

 

Is this correct? 

 

Did you know some pictures for looking on naminohira school swords to compare the hamon?

 

Thanks 

 

Chris

[Gabriel L]

Well, I can at least point out the literal meanings (as I understand them): Hoso 細・ほそ (fine, detailed, thin) vs. Ito 糸 (thread).

 

Connoisseur's (Nagayama Kokan) states that hoso is in comparison to hiro / chū (wide / medium), and that "extremely narrow" hamon are also called ito. Harry "Afu" Watson's glossary treats them as synonyms. I've seen many swords described as having "hoso or ito suguba".

 

In general then, I think they are somewhat synonymous, but as ito ("thread") has a narrower connotation, it tends to be used for narrower hamon than hoso ("narrow") on average. But that the distinction is fuzzy.

 

I also have in my notes that one of them might refer more to the width / tightness of the habuchi, but I didn't write down where I read that or how it applies exactly, just as a point to keep researching.

 

---

 

On a related topic, people don't always use these terms to deliberately mean one thing vs. another. If I write down that a blade is "elegant," and somewhere else I describe a blade as "graceful," it would be kind of silly for people to try and dissect why I used one "term" for blade A and another for blade B. It's not classifications, it's language, and although language has nuance it is also often messy and arbitrary. Not saying that ito vs. hoso necessarily falls under this, just pointing out that sometimes we treat Japanese like a code or scientific taxonomy, but it's not.

[vajo]

For my understanding is this a hoso suguha.

From Darcys Website (nihonto.ca)

 

And this is a Ito Suguha

 

From the website of Paplo Kunz (uniquejapan.com)

 

Did you know some swords to look on this very very thin hamon (wich come not from polish) :-)

 

I hope it is ok to link the both pictures as example. 

[seattle1]

Hello:

 As for the line drawing above, the two on the right in any event, do not appear to be generic hoso or ito suguba. They are, and say they are, types of midare where the upper boundary approximates something close to suguba. Classic hoso or ito is, as "ito" makes clear, more or less thread-like. They often will be scant on complementary activity devices like ash, kinsuji, and the like, but not necessarily so. I would image that such hamon tend to be correlated with excellent cutting blades.

 Arnold F.

[Stefan]

Im klassischem Verständnis ist der Hoso-Suguha  ein sehr  schmaler Suguha, aber der Ito-Suguha  ist gespannt wie eine Seite, er  hat Stärke. Technisch  geshen ist es das Gleiche, aber  künstlerisch ein riesen Unterschied.

[Gabriel L]

Im klassischem Verständnis ist der Hoso-Suguha  ein sehr  schmaler Suguha, aber der Ito-Suguha  ist gespannt wie eine Seite, er  hat Stärke. Technisch  geshen ist es das Gleiche, aber  künstlerisch ein riesen Unterschied.

 

Google Translated:

 

 

In the classical sense, the Hoso-Suguha is a very narrow Suguha, but the Ito-Suguha is strained like a side, it has strength. Technically it is the same, but artistically a huge difference.

[Dave R]

 This possibly explains one of my blades, a very open grained Mumei Wakizashi which looked to have no hamon. Then after cleaning an apparent hamon appeared at about the thickness of a piece of wire.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I think this wakizashi would be hoso-suguha?

 

 

I wonder how many hoso-suguha came about from many polishes over the years? You would think hoso and ito suguha would be a risky hamon for a sword in use, any chip would be potentially catastrophic for a combat sword.

[Darcy]

hiro-suguba: wide  ... you look at it and go well, that looks unusually wide.

 

chu-suguba: normal ... proportions are just right

 

hoso-suguba: narrow ... made a bit thin

 

ito-suguba: string ... very very narrow

 

They are just notches on a ruler.

 

In the case of ito-suguba it should give an impression of almost being on top of the ha, like a string laid just above the cutting edge, but if you look at it in smiths like Yoshimitsu or Shintogo, it will have all kinds of super fine activities in it. 

[vajo]

Thank you Darcy