Itame and mokume hada

[jeremy]

Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class that swords which have a mixture of itame hada and mokume hada should not be used for cutting, but those swords which only exhibit only itame hada should be used for cutting? Anyone care to share their thoughts??

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

[Jean]

Jeremy,

 

Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class

 

was it a Cooking class????

 

Bull ...(s**t!! I cannot find the end of this word.. ).

 

 

In Koto :

 

Mino swords which were reknowned for their cutiing ability have a mokume hada

 

Bizen swords are Mokume

 

Among these schools you will find an amazing number of Wazamono, Ryo wazamono ...

 

Have a look at this link and search in the "swordsmith ranking/wazamono ranking"

 

http://www.jp-sword.com/

[Jacques D.]

hi,

 

 

Mino swords which were reknowned for their cutiing ability have a mokume hada

 

 

 

According Nihonto-koza (Koto part II, Mino-den, page 69).

 

Jitetsu (first period) : As for the kitae, those with a hint of masame mixed in Itame are the most common.

(second period) : As for the kitae, a hint of Masame mixed in Itame is the most common, and rarely a pure masame is seen.

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

We can always discuss the topic over the distinction between Mokume/Itame and the distinction made by Japanese Experts (herebelow some counter examples) and we have already done it in another topic.

 

Herebelow some counter examples:

 

A well documented link ( Dr Stein):

 

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esteinrl/mino.htm

 

Fred Weissberg :http://www.nihonto.com/abtmaj.html

 

Malcom E Cox : Mino-To

p13 : Hada :.... and the folding patterns produce a grain (jihada) that is basically Mokume

Nakayama Kokan (the Connoissseurs of Japanese swords) :

 

p88 : Mokume hada : ....In blades of Mino Province, Mokume is combined with Masame

 

Attribution based on Jihada p88 :

 

Chu Mokume combined with Masame :

Koto : Naoe Shizu, Kanemoto II, Izumi no Kami Kanesada, Sue Seki

 

p.89 Mokume combined with Masame

Leading swordsmiths : Koto : Sue-Seki

 

p.215, 216 : Mino tradition

 

Early Mino : Jihada : O-mokume hada combined with some masame Hada

Middle Period : : Mokume-hada combined with masame-hada

Sue-Seki : ... the Ji is coarse Mokume-hada

 

- Zenjo school : Ko-Mokume hada

- Kanemoto school : O-Hada

- Kanesada school : mokume-hada mixed with Masame-hada

- Hachiya Kanesada school : mokume-hada mixed with Masame-hada

- Kanefusa school : coarse mokume-hada mixed with Masame-hada

- Akasaka Senjuin : ko-mokume hada

 

But the topic was : is Mokume as good for cutting purpose as itame?

 

The link to Jinsso Kim's website answers the question

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Kanzan Sato Sensei and the NBTHK (and many others) say Itame, i'll follow this way :D

[Jean]

Kanzan Sato Sensei and the NBTHK (and many others) say Itame, i'll follow this way

 

Anyway, Some likes it hot :lol: :lol:

[Brian]

A good read: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/d.fuller30/hada.html

Mokume: Described as the rings of a tree cut across or slightly diagonal thus giving a pattern consisting in the main of concentric circles. It must be remembered that this may well be within a hada that displays an Itame grain so the decision as to weather this is Itame with mokume or Mokume with Itame is perhaps a topic for further debate!

I actually haven't seen this page before, and at a first glace it is quite well done.

Let's not debate this too much...there is a fine line (konuka? :lol: ) between them often.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class that swords which have a mixture of itame hada and mokume hada should not be used for cutting, but those swords which only exhibit only itame hada should be used for cutting? Anyone care to share their thoughts??

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

 

This cannot be dismissed out of hand completely without first understanding what it is that is being referred to here. Persons that cut regularly with nihonto can tell you that certain combinations of hada and hamon will result in a higher breakability factor. Swords need to be evaluated each independently, as there are a host of contributing factors involved.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the off topic....

 

Jean... wonder....

 

http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/ ... _front.htm

http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/ ... kantei.htm

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

Still

 

Topic is

 

"Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class that swords which have a mixture of itame hada and mokume hada should not be used for cutting, but those swords which only exhibit only itame hada should be used for cutting? Anyone care to share their thoughts??"

 

Whatever Mino hada is, it does not answer the topic question.

 

If Mokume hada was not fit for cutting, Bizen would not have produced the largest number of swords.

 

The examples and counter examples given show only one thing, even Japanese experts disagree between themslves on mokume and itame.

 

Nagayama Kokan was a National Living Treasure

Kanzan Sato was head of NBTHK

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Nagayama Kokan was a National Living Treasure

 

Oshigata i linked above are from Kokan Nagayama itself and i read itame everywhere (Bizen also).

 

End of the debate.

[Jean]

still

[Jacques D.]

HI,

 

Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class that swords which have a mixture of itame hada and mokume hada should not be used for cutting, but those swords which only exhibit only itame hada should be used for cutting? Anyone care to share their thoughts??

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

 

Horikawa Kunihiro had a kitae made of Itame with some Mokume, and he was ranked O-wazamono (excellent) :D

[Jean]

Magoroku Kanemoto (2nd Generation) Mokume hada (cf Sue Koto swords by G. Robson) was saijo Wazamono together with Osafune Hidemitsu, Kanemoto I, Osafune Motoshige.

 

In fact, an analysis should be made on the blades which were used for the tests.

 

180 swords were used to classified the sharpness of the swords forged by the most well known swordsmiths (Koto, Shinto ....)

 

It appears that Mino and Bizen swordsmiths during Koto were the winners.

 

The hada of a smith tends to be the same over his life but there are a lot of smiths even in Mino who have forged masame hada, itame hada or mokume hada. Bizen smiths who forged

Mokume hada but who could also make swords in Itame hada. You have an example of 2 oei Bizen smiths on Darcy's website, Yasumitsu and Morimitsu : one with Mokume hada, the other with Itame hada.

 

If you want to make your opinion on sue Koto blades kitae, I invite you to read G. Robson book on Sue Koto blades, this will give you an opinion on schools kitae, hamon.

 

 

Things are never black or white in Nihonto

[Brian]

I think we have proved pretty conclusively that the original statement is false.

 

Brian

[jeremy]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I guess theres no real difference in jihada when it comes to sharpness and strength of a sword blade. What the senior student was talking about is that he believes itame hada, or ko-itame hada make a more cohesive blade, hence more suitable for cutting.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

[John A Stuart]

A more pertinent discussion about a blades robustness would be the question of nioi or nie-deki. As far as I can see mokume and itame hada are rarely found independent of one another. Sometimes it is easier to describe a sword as one or the other even though there is some of the other mixed in, never mind the parameters. Another good question would be; what makes one smith o-wazamono while another isn't when they both use similar sword-smithing techniques? Better steel, better yakire, what? Isn't that what counts in evaluating a sword for cutting? John

[Ford Hallam]

I think, what this, very detailed, discussion has established without any doubt is; most sword swingers know diddly squat about metallurgy, nor indeed, Japanese swords. Most dojo dwellers gain their "expertise" from DVD's and the sempai/kohai relationship is not very conducive to critical thinking , is it?

 

In any case, the so called, "experience" of part time hobbyists is hardly relevant when compared to 1000 years of tradition based on the empirical, life and death, judgements of professional fighting men.

Regards, Ford my tongue is sharper than my sword, but only just

[Stone8]

On 3/28/2008 at 7:02 AM, jeremy said:

Just recently I have been told by a senior student in my class that swords which have a mixture of itame hada and mokume hada should not be used for cutting, but those swords which only exhibit only itame hada should be used for cutting? Anyone care to share their thoughts??

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeremy Hagop

One word: Ichimonji.  The Fukuoka Ichimonji school of early-to-middle Kamakura produced many beautiful and notable swords with a legendary cutting ability, which were made with an itame/mokume mix; this school also specialized in ko-choji and choji-midare hamon based mainly on nioi-deki structure. They were so renowned, that the emperor Gotoba had seven smiths of that school as personal instructors (he had a taste for swordsmithing), a part of the Go-bankaji, who would make swords for him (and even with the emperor himself sometimes participating in the process).

So you see, it is probably the same as when martial artists today argue for mono-steel for cutting over any folded sword, be it nihonto or not. They talk mainly based on their personal experience, but as they probably have never used an itame-mokume nihonto for cutting, they can’t be a judge as to these swords’ cutting abilities... Mr. Hallam couldn’t have put it better.

Thanks for sharing your ponderings with us!!

 

Guillermo