Size And Weight At "birth"

[Vermithrax16]

I went off on a tangent (I tend to do that.....) on the thread discussing the Bizen Unjo Juyo sword and I thought why not actually try and get some ideas.

 

I often think about what one of these swords were like when the smith first completed his work. Specifically the width of the blade (thickness and blade width) and body niku when new.

 

We all look at details like kasane and to me that is how I try to compare various blades of the same smith or era for how many times they have been polished or wear over time. Clearly this will vary for swords based on era made, school, and living thing variation (smith work varies). A top down picture of a blade showing the nakago vs the main sword body can tell something about how much metal has been lost though to be fair in examples I have seen it has to be pretty bad to be able to see it clearly, at least from pictures.

 

Maybe someone has an old swordmaker journal that notated this? I know the old length descriptions are known. 

 

So what were the sizes of swords at birth? 

 

There are a few examples where I think it's clear the sword is almost pristine and we can learn from those special "miracles" as to what the original dimensions were. For example we all discussed the Nagayuki Juyo sword ( https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-nagayuki-oite-settsu-koku-saku-korenbthk-24th-tokubetsu-juyo-paper ) which is a Kanbun era sword, an era I often look at. Other more knowledgeable members can point out other examples.

 

More experienced members may know but I would love to know how much metal is lost during a good polish. What about a bad one? How many can be done?

 

This subject fascinates me even though I know all we can deal with now is what is in front of us today. 

 

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

I have thought of the loss of steel a sword undergoes each polish. I asked Mishina Sensei if he had a sense of this and if he would weigh the sword before and after - since I only thought of it after the sword was gone. He said, somewhat begrudgingly that he'd do it and that only westerners ask questions like this. So I let the topic die and not surprisingly the weighing didn't happen.

 

I think this is something that could be done, to understand how much steel is removed from a single polish, which really wouldn't answer your question anyway - about changes over hundreds of years. Probably the best way to get at what you're looking at is to find a sword that had an oshigata done a long time ago and commission a new one. These swords exist, but they're usually important swords and access is extremely limited. So you personally getting a shot at it is HIGHLY unlikely.

 

Perhaps, you could engage Paul Martin who would possibly have access to these swords and he's a talented oshigata artist (placed third in last year's NBSK contest in I recall correctly or maybe the NBTHK?).

 

Assuming you could have it done, then you could measure the dimensions - not weight though - and compare how much the sword's dimensions have changed.

[Vermithrax16]

Joe, thank you! Was hoping you would comment, I value your thoughts and input very much.

[Ken-Hawaii]

There are, of course, different types of polishes. A simple sharpening is what likely happened to many Koto blades, unless they were damaged, in which case much more steel would disappear as kizu were removed, or the blade was reshaped.

 

Bob Benson has a very beaten-up mid-Muromachi (Temmon) Sukesada katana that I brought over to him for an overseas friend, & he's going to have to do a LOT of reshaping, even before repolishing. I'll ask Bob if he can weigh the blade before & after, but that's just one data point, albeit during the peak of Sengoku Jidai. Will that help, Jeremiah? At least Bob is a "Westerner!"

 

Ken

 

[SAS]

As Ken states above, the condition of a blade before polishing will have a large effect on how much steel needs to be removed to restore it to a proper condition. A well maintained blade will have a comparatively negligible loss by weight, versus a chipped, rusted/pitted blade (or so it seems to me as a smith.)

[Vermithrax16]

There are, of course, different types of polishes. A simple sharpening is what likely happened to many Koto blades, unless they were damaged, in which case much more steel would disappear as kizu were removed, or the blade was reshaped.

 

Bob Benson has a very beaten-up mid-Muromachi (Temmon) Sukesada katana that I brought over to him for an overseas friend, & he's going to have to do a LOT of reshaping, even before repolishing. I'll ask Bob if he can weigh the blade before & after, but that's just one data point, albeit during the peak of Sengoku Jidai. Will that help, Jeremiah? At least Bob is a "Westerner!"

 

Ken

Sure! I would be interested to see the numbers. If he could also take tight measurements that would be super bonus. Thanks Ken and good luck with the project.

[Vermithrax16]

Along the lines of what we are discussing here, this sword at Aoi Art is a shinshinto blade and I am wondering if this is a typo or not. A Kasane of..... 0.93cm?????

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana%EF%BC%9Asakuyo-bakkashi-hosokawa-masamori-tsukuru-kore-kokuinbunkyu-2nenn-inoshishi-rokugatsu-hi

 

As of late there have been some typos, confused details on their listings, so not 100% sure. If this is correct that is the largest kasane measurement I have ever seen and must be an outlier, not a usual "at birth" size. I could be wrong of course!

[Jean]

Jeremiah,

 

You will have some answers in studying Tokubesu Juyo blades or Kokuho/juyo bunkazai/bijutsuhin. Some of them are pretty close from their shape when coming out from the forge.

 

"Generally" speaking, the higher the classification the closer from their initial state.

 

For the rest, it is pure speculation, above all for Koto blades.

 

You will never know for a given blade how many polishes it has undergone and which kind of polishes (thorough or light). Not two blades are alike and not two blades have the same history.

 

In French, we call this "sex angel discussion"

[SwordGuyJoe]

In English with have conversations like that too, but it has nothing to do with swords!

[Vermithrax16]

In English with have conversations like that too, but it has nothing to do with swords!

Instant classic 

[Vermithrax16]

Jeremiah,

 

You will have some answers in studying Tokubesu Juyo blades or Kokuho/juyo bunkazai/bijutsuhin. Some of them are pretty close from their shape when coming out from the forge.

 

"Generally" speaking, the higher the classification the closer from their initial state.

 

For the rest, it is pure speculation, above all for Koto blades.

 

You will never know for a given blade how many polishes it has undergone and which kind of polishes (thorough or light). Not two blades are alike and not two blades have the same history.

 

In French, we call this "sex angel discussion"

Is there an english write up or catalog of such blades online or in print so one can look at such blades?

[J Reid]

I forget the name (and have no link) but there was a sword forged in heian? Kamakura? that was held at a shrine.. it was in original condition and had never been polished. It was recently polished and was viewed as an exceptional example of the original sugata of swords made during that period. We discussed it here on the forum years ago.. does anyone remember what I'm talking about?

[J Reid]

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12871-ubu-mumei-tachi-at-the-kasuga-shrine-in-nara/?fromsearch=1

[J Reid]

I guess the blade was an attachment to the koshirae.. thought I was onto something

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hey, what ever happened to the 0.93cm kasane?? A thickness of 0.37 inches seems a tad thick! I have a real scimitar that isn't that thick.

 

Ken

 

[peterd]

Hi, I have blade by Kunisuke student of munetsugu dated 1863. kasane aprox 0.93. Nagasa 75.9cm

[Jussi Ekholm]

What Jean said about top quality is really important. When you see excellent swords it will make you rethink many things you thought differently before seeing them. They are just so far beyond my personal ability to grasp as they are such a rare treat for me to see. Some of the famous swords are in incredible condition and it is mind blowing to think how old they are.

 

One of the most interesting swords I have seen has to be the Naki-gitsune. http://www.emuseum.jp/detail/100503/000/000?mode=detail&d_lang=en&s_lang=en&class=&title=&c_e=&region=&era=&century=&cptype=&owner=&pos=665&num=8   One of the earliest surviving examples of uchigatana from the late 1200's. Now after seeing it I understand the appeal of Awataguchi. The historical meaning of this sword (age, provenance), the amazing condition it has after all these years. Truly remarkable piece of history...

 

There are lots of amazing books & catalogs of top quality swords in print. Usually the exhibition catalogs are in Japanese with English index page. However weight is rarely listed in these as a measurement. My collecting is now mostly focused on getting lots of these books & catalogs and drooling on stuff for many years to come.

 

As an online resource E-Museum is nice, here is the list of swords: http://www.emuseum.jp/result?d_lang=en&mode=detail&s_lang=en&itemCount=8&class=6

 

As for the sword in opening post I think 0,93 kasane is reasonable for it so I don't think it is a typo. To me it looks like thick and heavy sword. I am not personally too big fan of these late Shinshintō swords so my opinion on them is bit skewed as it is old stuff for my heart.

[Vermithrax16]

What Jean said about top quality is really important. When you see excellent swords it will make you rethink many things you thought differently before seeing them. They are just so far beyond my personal ability to grasp as they are such a rare treat for me to see. Some of the famous swords are in incredible condition and it is mind blowing to think how old they are.

 

One of the most interesting swords I have seen has to be the Naki-gitsune. http://www.emuseum.jp/detail/100503/000/000?mode=detail&d_lang=en&s_lang=en&class=&title=&c_e=&region=&era=&century=&cptype=&owner=&pos=665&num=8   One of the earliest surviving examples of uchigatana from the late 1200's. Now after seeing it I understand the appeal of Awataguchi. The historical meaning of this sword (age, provenance), the amazing condition it has after all these years. Truly remarkable piece of history...

 

There are lots of amazing books & catalogs of top quality swords in print. Usually the exhibition catalogs are in Japanese with English index page. However weight is rarely listed in these as a measurement. My collecting is now mostly focused on getting lots of these books & catalogs and drooling on stuff for many years to come.

 

As an online resource E-Museum is nice, here is the list of swords: http://www.emuseum.jp/result?d_lang=en&mode=detail&s_lang=en&itemCount=8&class=6

 

As for the sword in opening post I think 0,93 kasane is reasonable for it so I don't think it is a typo. To me it looks like thick and heavy sword. I am not personally too big fan of these late Shinshintō swords so my opinion on them is bit skewed as it is old stuff for my heart.

This is great Jussi, thank you!