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Sword Opinion


GrimesSU
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Mike,

this blade is very probably not traditionally hand forged from TAMAHAGANE, but it is a standard blade made from industrial steel. It seems to have been oil quenched, as far as the (acid enhanced?) HAMON allows a statement.

Depending on the price it may or may not be a good offer.  

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From the picture i think the seller is showa22 from ebay. I read in the forum that he clean blade with acid. Check the for sale saction and you can fine somthing batter.

 

Yes, it is from that seller. Shame if true that he enhances them with acid.

 

 

Mike,

 

this blade is very probably not traditionally hand forged from TAMAHAGANE, but it is a standard blade made from industrial steel. It seems to have been oil quenched, as far as the (acid enhanced?) HAMON allows a statement.

 

Depending on the price it may or may not be a good offer.

 

I should probably pass on it then if it's not TAMAHAGANE. I'm hoping for a full traditional made blade.

 

A bit misleading of him to call it "traditional made", but not saying it is industrial steel with an oil quench.

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......A bit misleading of him to call it "traditionally made", but not saying it is industrial steel with an oil quench.

Yes,

 

that is a very polite comment! In fact, it is fraud, because the possible value increase for a GENDAITO in the long range and the actual financial differences are not small! 

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Yes, it is from that seller. Shame if true that he enhances them with acid.

 

 

 

I should probably pass on it then if it's not TAMAHAGANE. I'm hoping for a full traditional made blade.

 

A bit misleading of him to call it "traditional made", but not saying it is industrial steel with an oil quench.

Is the description false? Send the seller an message and ask if the sword is a "nihonto", and by the way, are not Japanese swords made with "nanban tetsu" still considered to be "nihonto".

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Yes,

 

that is a very polite comment! In fact, it is fraud, because the possible value increase for a GENDAITO in the long range and the actual financial differences are not small!

Here is the sellers description. What facts lead you to determine that this description in false?

 

("This is a Japanese WWll Army officer`s sword in mountings. The blade is signed "Noshu Seki ju Kaneuji kin saku 濃州関住兼氏謹作", dated "Koki Nisen roppyaku-nen 皇紀二千六百年 (1940)", with 昭 inspection stamp, shinogi-zukuri shape, WWll time period made blade. Kaneuji made swords during WWll and after the war as a Gendai sword smith, listed in John Slough's book page 72. The blade is traditional hand forged, in old polish with original ububa, no rust, no stain and in good condition. The temper line is wavy gunome choji temper pattern and has deep temper at the point. The forging grain is tight itame-hada and no forging flaws at all. There is no bend, no crack and cutting edge is sharp. The scabbard is heavy metal scabbard, no dents, no bend and in good condition. The handle is tight fit with silver family mon on kabutogane, tsuka-ito wrapping is no cut, no loose and in good condition. Lock mechanism works fine. Tsuba and seppa are matched 136 number stamped. It came with blue/brown company grade sword tassel, no cut, no fade and in good condition. It measures 27+1/4" tip to the guard, 26+3/8" cutting edge, 1+3/16" width, 7 mm thickness at the notch and 39+1/2" in mountings.")

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While there may be the occasional and very rare Gendaito that slips through with a Seki or Sho stamp...this isn't one of them. Very much an oil quenched Showato, and calling it a traditionally made sword is misleading.

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...... What facts lead you to determine that this description in false?.....

He wrote: ..... The blade is traditional(ly) hand forged, in old polish with original ububa, no rust, no stain and in good condition. The temper line is wavy gunome choji temper pattern...... 

 

Judging by the photos, I don't see a traditionally handforged blade, and my opinion is not based on the SHO stamp. Traditionally means the material and the technique. The description of the HAMON is also not correct.

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While there may be the occasional and very rare Gendaito that slips through with a Seki or Sho stamp...this isn't one of them. Very much an oil quenched Showato, and calling it a traditionally made sword is misleading.

Brian showa22 is a very experienced, long time seller with over 3400 sales, so is he just ignorant or a fraud, if this is an oil quenched showato then his description is more than "misleading", it would be an outright lie would it not? ("traditional hand forged,..... The temper line is wavy gunome choji temper pattern and has deep temper at the point. The forging grain is tight itame-hada and no forging flaws at all.")

 

Here are the available images of the blade, can anyone help the original poster (Mike) and point out what shows this to be an oil quenched blade so that in the future he will have more to go on more than just the description of the seller.

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Brian showa22 is a very experienced, long time seller with over 3400 sales, so is he just ignorant or a fraud, if this is an oil quenched showato then his description is more than "misleading", it would be an outright lie would it not? ("traditional hand forged,..... The temper line is wavy gunome choji temper pattern and has deep temper at the point. The forging grain is tight itame-hada and no forging flaws at all.")

 

Here are the available images of the blade, can anyone help the original poster (Mike) and point out what shows this to be an oil quenched blade so that in the future he will have more to go on more than just the description of the seller.

 

 

I have an old traditional made blade in WWII mounts. The tang has 6 holes, one of which being a filled hole. The 6th hole is at the end of the tang where it was cut down at one time, indicating it was a much longer blade at one time.

 

I have been told it likely dates from the 1500s to early 1600. I didn't pay too much for it as the blade condition is pretty horrid, but just the fact the it was a very old blade with a long history had me buy it.

 

 

I've been searching for a nice condition traditional made with a wavy temper to go along with it, but the minefield of 'oil quenched industrial steel' blades called "traditional" is hard to navigate.

 

I got burned with another so-called traditional (forum members here pointed out another oil quench blade), and getting a refund for that was a nightmare with the seller sending me insults at every email for saying it was a misleading description.

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Isn't it a fairly common ploy to make a false statement (traditional, hand-forged), provide the information that contradicts it (Sho stamp) and then leave it to potential buyers to draw a conclusion?

 

Those who know would assume that in most cases the armoury stamp would point to a gunto whereas the more naive will focus on the buyer's description, thinking that they are getting something better than is actually being sold. When a dissatisfied buyer cries fraud, the seller merely points to his disclosure of a material fact that ought to have put the buyer on notice.

 

For me this is dishonesty but I'm not sure it amounts to fraud...I'd leave that to the more legally minded to decide.

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Yes Eric, that's exactly what i am saying.
He has some nice stuff. His similar army swords use that same copy-paste description often. I think you know that. You've been around the block long enough to know his sales.
The Ryujin page goes into great length to come to no conclusion. The fact is, Sho stamps and Seki stamps are enough to say it isn't a Gendaito. The very rare exception just proves the point.
And that aside...this one is very obvious, as others have pointed out. The acid he uses just makes it even more obvious.

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Yes Eric, that's exactly what i am saying.

He has some nice stuff. His similar army swords use that same copy-paste description often. I think you know that. You've been around the block long enough to know his sales.

The Ryujin page goes into great length to come to no conclusion. The fact is, Sho stamps and Seki stamps are enough to say it isn't a Gendaito. The very rare exception just proves the point.

And that aside...this one is very obvious, as others have pointed out. The acid he uses just makes it even more obvious.

 

Looking up more about the seller just brings up more bad stuff.

 

Apparently he has sold 'parts swords' (put together) as full originals, over-exaggerates condition/not disclosing condition issues (pitting, rust, forging openings), further evidence of acid enhancing, and overall issues when a customer needed to return something.

 

 

Not to say he doesn't have good stuff from time to time, but it seems he doesn't tell the full truth on things.

 

 

 

I'm glad forum members here steered me in the right direction.

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Isn't it a fairly common ploy to make a false statement (traditional, hand-forged), provide the information that contradicts it (Sho stamp) and then leave it to potential buyers to draw a conclusion?

 

Those who know would assume that in most cases the armoury stamp would point to a gunto whereas the more naive will focus on the buyer's description, thinking that they are getting something better than is actually being sold. When a dissatisfied buyer cries fraud, the seller merely points to his disclosure of a material fact that ought to have put the buyer on notice.

 

For me this is dishonesty but I'm not sure it amounts to fraud...I'd leave that to the more legally minded to decide.

Actually it is quite easy, if the shoe fits......It does not matter if the seller does sell "some" swords with accurate descriptions

 

Fraud, noun, wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Synonyms:fraudulence, cheating, swindling, embezzlement, deceit, deception, double-dealing, chicanery, sharp practice.

 

More, a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

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No..not fraud...especially in a field where "traditionally made" is fluid.
We all know what it means...but it is flexible and gives a seller an out.
No reason to continue this debate. The seller generally sells ok stuff, but there are the usual pitfalls and things that prove the fact that buyers should spend money on books before swords.
Buyer beware as always, and ask questions first. It's not rocket science.

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I got burned with another so-called traditional (forum members here pointed out another oil quench blade), and getting a refund for that was a nightmare with the seller sending me insults at every email for saying it was a misleading description.

So you bought a bad one, this time you did the right thing and posted here first, now you should have enough info so that you can figure it out on your own. If you see a Japanese military sword with a stamp, be very careful, do some research, do not rely solely on a dealers description. Joe was kind enough to gave you some good clues ("Lack of any real hada, lack of activity in the hamon, lack of nie in the hamon or jigane (for some have ji-nie)"). Here is a link to a Pinterest board with a lot of Japanese sword related info that may help you as well. https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/glossary-of-samurai-armor-weapons-related-terms-an/

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