Jump to content

Trusted Polishers


Richard Arias

Recommended Posts

Depends on the car I suppose. If a ford, no. If a Lamborghini, then yes. But even considering a Lamborghini, it isn't a fair comparison as no matter how much care you take to preserve it, it will not be around in 1,000 years to appreciate for future car connoisseurs, where as a sword CAN be if the proper care is taken. In 1,000 years a shinsakuto made for the Iaito market will be considered a treasure. Perhaps like late koto kazuuchimono is today. They're not to the quality level of an Ichimonji, but a treasure nonetheless. A lot of the problem in my opinion, is that people make justifications when deciding what to do with their swords, thinking, "My sword doesn't deserve an expensive polish" mainly because they done want to spend the money, but they've lost perspective of the fact that if cared for properly, the shelf-life can me measured in hundreds of years and all it takes is one bad polish to destroy a sword.

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are plenty of fully trained togi in Japan. The problem isn't the supply of polishers or training. The problem is that many people are unwilling to spend the money to have a proper polish applied. They also feel justified when they get there cheaply "polished" blade back because usually, they do not have the experience to know a good polish from a bad one, so all they see is a shiny blade, that used to be dull or rusty. When amateur polishers have a longer wait list than Mukansa polishers in Japan, you can see that the two year wait list DOES imply that something is not right. A lot of people who feel they care for swords but disrepect the art and the craft all to save money and (in some cases) time for a wait list.

 

In my opinion it's a sad state of affairs.

The funny thing though is there is a Point where once things are Symmetrical, Sharp, Properly Shaped ex. Your paying for the fact that the polisher has a big name and is from a school of tradition more than what he is actually doing to improve the sword. Not that this isn't justified someone like David Hoffine (Very nice prompt Guy) deserves his fee for what he does. It's just that I don't think my blade has that need due to its tight hada and simple hamon. It would be like me paying to see a Standford doctor for just needing some stitches. Any basic urgent care can do that at a fair price.

 

People keep asking me why I had Nihonzashi do the work. But they did correct a lot of asymmetrical geometry, scratches ex. So I made the choice to have the sword sit in a proper functioning Polish that might not look pretty but is Symmetrical, Proper and Sharp. I didn't let some DIY polisher rub Diamond hones on it. Whatever a traditional Polisher might improve on they would not have to go all the way back down to foundation. So either way it's time and money saved.

 

But it seems like the option I took was the best option. And I think I will take Dave's advice and stick to my Sharpening Polish. Because there are no good options in my time frame...

 

I agree that right now the market is either cheap or expensive with no middle and that is sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Depends on the car I suppose. If a ford, no. If a Lamborghini, then yes. But even considering a Lamborghini, it isn't a fair comparison as no matter how much care you take to preserve it, it will not be around in 1,000 years to appreciate for future car connoisseurs, where as a sword CAN be if the proper care is taken. In 1,000 years a shinsakuto made for the Iaito market will be considered a treasure. Perhaps like late koto kazuuchimono is today. They're not to the quality level of an Ichimonji, but a treasure nonetheless. A lot of the problem in my opinion, is that people make justifications when deciding what to do with their swords, thinking, "My sword doesn't deserve an expensive polish" mainly because they done want to spend the money, but they've lost perspective of the fact that if cared for properly, the shelf-life can me measured in hundreds of years and all it takes is one bad polish to destroy a sword.

 

In 1,000 years the world may not be here. It kills me because that thinking about Collecting and Blades is why the Gimei market is thriving at the moment. People being sold a modern blade with a fake signature or a Mumei with an appraisal of who the appraiser thinks made it and when. A leap of faith at Best.

 

My point is that you guys have to understand you don't apply that reason to every area of your lives. There are far museums, so you don't know where a Lamborghini will be in Futurama times :) Anything can be art, but sometimes you go to Outback or Chilli's because you don't want to pay $75 for a steak at a 4 Star.

 

I have seen art swords and they don't speak to me. I have seen a Honami school Polish blade and would prefer my blade in a plain old Lazy shop Hadori Polish. Because I would rather have a Fully loaded Subaru than a Lamborghini. But I prefer modest and practical.

 

But it all goes back to me asking for a simple name. All anyone had to say is What Mr Hoffine said "nobody comes to mind".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see what any of these arguments have in relation to collecting or proper togishi.

 

You don't need to explain your justifications as to why you think a high level service should be available for pennies on the dollar or why us, as a forum dedicated to the proper collecting and care of Japanese swords, would get irritated at someone asking us to recommend someone to do the exact opposite.

 

If you have no interest or respect for what we are trying to achieve here I'm not sure why you are registered as a member.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing like steel and stones to raise the cackles

 

 

 

Stephen,

I just love your new avatar pic, mate :thumbsup:

You rock, and you always will. Can't imagine this forum w/o ppl like you :)

 

Richard, 

You have to know that Brian, who owns this shop here, is allergic to any form of amateur polish. He has a point, as many swords have been ruined by incompetent "polishers". Yours is a shinsakuto, and I presume it is not rusted, pitted or something like this. In other words, what you need is a sensible polish which does not affect the shape. If this is the case, I would say that you can entrust your sword to a non-professional polisher, as long as he knows his limits. 

 

I know one polisher here, in this far away country of ポーランド, who does great traditional polishing. But he will take a job only if it does not include changing the shape. The guy knows his limitations, and he is great when it comes to finishing work. You might want to look for someone with the same attitude.  

 

Good luck and don't let your sword be ruined by some idiot.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sad thing is that people forget the responsibilities someone has running a forum like this. Do they think that I can afford to have all my own swords traditionally polished? Surprised to know that I have never been able to afford to send ONE sword for a professional polish? Not on a South African salary! But that doesn't mean I settle for second best. I just look after them until oneday I can, or pass them on to the next generation who might.
That aside, consider what it takes to run a forum and be taken even slightly seriously by the Nihonto community. Do I have to start rating amateur polishers and saying who ruins swords and who does a half decent job? Do you want the job of deciding what amateur is better than the next? It's all or nothing. Either some amateur polishing is ok (and then we'd have to clarify what/who is and what/who isn't) or NO amateur polishing is ok.
It's a forum position. The only one that can be taken. So it's not even my own stance (although I agree with it) but it is a logical position taken by a serious Nihonto forum, and the only one that can be taken if we hope to be regarded as professional and serious, by the higher powers out there running this world of Nihonto. See if you could take any other position if you were running this.

  • Like 11
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I imagine it's not Easy. I teach shooters and Swordsman so I again run into more practical questions. Helping people find the right gun because the wrong one could risk their lives more than Normal for a high stress situation. Funny thing is self defense instructors will tell you that if you want truth you have to put aside your opinions. Also If you don't build a box you won't have to think your way out of it. This is not easy but a goal you shoot for.

 

     But again that is the difference between someone who uses a sword for training and spiritual growth to Just collecting. When I see people collect guns they lose sight that it is a tool and a weapon. That happens more with swords because people believe they are a part of "dead arts".

 

       But in dealing with people who only have movie and video game knowledge of swords and Martial Arts I try to be helpful. Because if I treat them the same way some here have acted then people never want to learn anything and find the path for themselves. I get people here love collecting, but I also have the Sword Art to demand my focus and money... You think that is easy? A sword is not much without the hand that carried it.

 

   I am sorry if I have been abrasive to people, but I have gotten a lot of offensive offers and advice lately and it's starting to get at me a little. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't sense any abrasion in your responses - I've admitted that I can be quite dense though. I hope you understand that my responses are as much and likely more, for the people who deem themselves collectors that are looking for a short cut and stumble across this post. No offense intended, but as you say, we are looking at the same or similar object from two different lenses.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, I think this has been thoroughly covered now.

Richard, you seem like a nice enough guy.  And my friend Joe is one of the best guys you will meet.  I think you just came to the wrong forum, which is dedicated to the preservation of nihonto, and got rubbed the wrong way.  As collectors, we have seen the damage caused by amateur polishers, so you hit a sore spot.  Especially when you titled this as "trusted polishers."  For what its worth, I "trust" Mukansa level polishers with my swords.  Period.

Also, please don't be so quick as dismiss us all as old crusty collectors with no interest in practical blades.  I myself have over 30 years of teaching martial arts, swords, tactical law enforcement training, and defensive handgun tactics.  I know others on this forum have even more experience than I do.

However, I can appreciate both the practical and artistic, and highly recommend that others do the same.  With experience, I have learned not to limit myself.  As much as you felt others were abrasive to you, I think others here may have felt the same way about some of the things you have said.  I think the majority of the folks here are not rich, but sacrifice and save what they can to collect and study.

Again, I hope another forum may give you some direction for what you want.  Good luck.

  • Like 7
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't sense any abrasion in your responses - I've admitted that I can be quite dense though. I hope you understand that my responses are as much and likely more, for the people who deem themselves collectors that are looking for a short cut and stumble across this post. No offense intended, but as you say, we are looking at the same or similar object from two different lenses.

I don't consider it a shortcut exactly. Randy Black is held by some to be one of the most reliable US mounters in the business. Yet his prices are fair and he is not a common Googled name. People find him word of mouth. No website, phone or Facebook ex. I was looking for that here. Not cheap per say, but someone people knew enough to trust with work. I had already asked the obvious People. Same if you go to my local town I know a body and machine shop you won't find online that people come from all over the state to work with... So again I don't consider my original question to be bad or odd.

 

People mistook that as I wanted some random guy to rub Stones on my blade for as cheap as possible and that is not true at all.

 

Funny thing is you guys would go a lot further towards that preservation goal if you found someone wanting to learn and helped them along. Much can be learned from Books, Videos, Seminars ex. Even take donations to send someone to Japan who wants to pick up some things. There was a self taught polisher in Canada who earned the respect of a master Togi. So it can be done like anything with desire and hard work.

 

My sword was made to use. It was made with Cutting in mind. So to have it sit (like it has for 6 years) and not be used for to me is disrespectful to the sword. Like a car that just sits, show car or not cars were made to drive not be stationary objects. But I sacrificed a lot to get the blade, it is my only one and will compete October 22nd. I would almost say I value this sword more than its previous owners. I think the clash is the logic of what you guys see as "proper" and "bad" or "ruined" Polish. I did autobody work for a while and used to hate places like macco. But now I get work done their often because you realize paying $3,000 for paint that WILL get scratched and fade is silly.

 

But that is a point you guys may shudder like I used to seeing uneven paint spots, runs, over spray, bubbles ex. When you look at a regular shop Polish. But even the Lazy Hadori seen on Japanese Shinsakuto would make me happy just because it would show me more than I can see now and I would not feel bad cutting with a polish like this. It's not that I don't know the difference... But for my need and intended use the difference does not matter.

 

But even the Polishers did not give me the guff that I got here. They simply gave "I'm busy, don't know anybody" and even commented that I might send it to a shop in Japan for a standard Polish because of my needs. So my point is even though it Annoys you guys you can point out an option while also making sure people know what they are getting (if they dont already)You don't have to agree with a choice to be helpful. If someone asked me where to find the nearest McDonald's I would not say "So you want to be fat and possibly give yourself cancer?" "You should save your money and buy grass fed beef". I would point them in the direction if I knew it because everything has a place depending on need and intended use (like macco).

 

Collection and Ideals aside that is just common courtesy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, Richard - people here could be both helpful/friendly but also vehement and jumpy at times. We tend to be judgemental and make assumptions rather than peruse, analyse, re-read and endeavour to see the opposite point. We all have to learn - not only about the Nihonto arts but how to deal with each other. Persevere and stay - you will not regret it.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The age of carrying swords to fight with is over.

A Nihonto is first a object of art and culture.

The times of samurai and feudalism has gone. Now it is the time to preserve the symbols for coming ages.

The thread reminds me more on romans and celt, cowboys and indians and other playing groups. Many collectors here do a scientist job in many aspects of Nihon-to. Playing with guns and swords to learn to kill is not part of our interrest in Japanese swords.

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The age of carrying swords to fight with is over.

A Nihonto is first a object of art and culture.

The times of samurai and feudalism has gone. Now it is the time to preserve the symbols for coming ages.

The thread reminds me more on romans and celt, cowboys and indians and other playing groups. Many collectors here do a scientist job in many aspects of Nihon-to. Playing with guns and swords to learn to kill is not part of our interrest in Japanese swords.

A sword nor a gun is a toy. So "play" is not the word to use. Until people evolve past the point where a sharp tool can hurt them swords will always be relevant in fighting. Many modern arts and fighting systems are based on things centuries old... The Japanese sword found effectiveness in WW1 and WW2 during the "modern age" of weapons automatic or otherwise.

 

But again I don't have a problem if you collect for whatever reason. Same with any other member here. But hopefully your collection is in a safe because if someone breaks in you may find your art relic a bit more threatening than you want to. But I also warn people who hide firearms in their house of the same thing.

 

But again what does this have to do with a simple question?....Nothing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree with you Chris, but you are entitled to your opinion.
As a firearm dealer, collector, salesman and daily carrier...I have 150 year old antiques, and modern Glocks, and everything inbetween. I enjoy them all, and consider my edc'ing as important as my collecting.
Anyways..don't want to divert too much, but wanted to mention that

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!  This conversation has gone on WAY longer than I would have ever expected.  At the end of the day, you are asking for references for an amateur, untrained, polisher.  As Brian mentioned, not something the board supports, and as I have called out, not something any sword-respecting-collector should endorse either.  I am not trying to help you see the light, as I gather that is not something that you are interested in.  That's fine.  I didn't mistake your question or expect "rubbing stones", etc.  I took it for exactly what it was.  Asking for references to "trusted" polishers, then confirming that a "heavy" is an amateur.  That's just not something most people on this forum support and I chimed in to let you know why and my opinion on the matter.

 

Like Michael said above, "We all have a lot to learn".  That's the great part about this board.  People are passionate and willing to take the time to share their knowledge and experience - like I have on this string.  Then their are individuals that don't care to learn or benefit and choose to go their own way.  That's fine too, just not something I would agree with and in this case, passionately disagree with.  At the end of the day, it's your sword.  Send it to who ever you want, do with it what ever you want, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me, but hopefully some well-intentioned new collector or practitioner will stumble onto this post and choose to save up for a proper polish and allow it the time it deserves (wait list), because your sword - even if a nihonto made for the Iai market - deserves it.  

 

My sincere recommendation is to contact Paul Martin (http://thejapanesesword.com/contact.php) to discuss what a proper polish would actually cost and time to deliver.  It may surprise you that it isn't as expensive or take as long as you may think. Your sword doesn't need to go to Mukansa rated polishers.  There are a number of levels of polishers and polishes in Japan to choose from.  

 

Regardless of what you choose, I do wish you luck in finding what you're looking for and hope you stick around.

  • Like 3
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I disagree. Swords are first and foremost weapons made for killing, and always have been. Form follows function. All the effort the swordsmiths put into their swords was to make a better killing weapon. If people want to ooh and aah over utsuri and other arcane effects in the steel, remember these are just byproducts of the effort to make a better killing weapon. I find the very term "art swords" distasteful and disingenuous. It is not art. It is not culture, unless the culture is about death and killing. No, I am not into the martial arts.

Yes, I enjoy studying a beautiful koto blade, but I always bear in mind what it is and what it is for.

 

 

Steve

 

 

The age of carrying swords to fight with is over.

A Nihonto is first a object of art and culture.

The times of samurai and feudalism has gone. Now it is the time to preserve the symbols for coming ages.

The thread reminds me more on romans and celt, cowboys and indians and other playing groups. Many collectors here do a scientist job in many aspects of Nihon-to. Playing with guns and swords to learn to kill is not part of our interrest in Japanese swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a police officer with more than 31 years of service experience, I'm familiar with a variety of weapons. Everything can be a deadly weapon. From a hammer to a sheet of paper ;-) . Maybe my english is to limited to discuss. I think the time has come to should not longer consider a Japanese sword primary as a killing tool.

Thats my attitude to Nihonto. For me it is art and culture of a past society. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Rchard. Everything can become a weapon, body parts included, but everything has not been design from the start as a weapon. Enough to read yearly statistics to see that cutting edges and firearms are not toys not speaking of the oldest available i.e. Stones and clubs...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...