Cleaning Rust From Heianjo Tsuba

[Ken-Hawaii]

I just got in an older Heianjo tsuba that has a ring of active rust around the nakago-ana & kozuka hitsu-ana. I would normally use a small piece of deer horn to clear the rust, but the majority is right around the brass inlays, & I'm afraid to push very much in that area. Any ideas or tricks on how to do rust removal in this case? Thanks!

 

Ken

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Ken,

No advice unless I/we see a picture first.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

Picky, picky! It's not easy to get a shot that really shows the rust, but try this one:

 

Ken

 

[Curran]

Shaped ivory chisels or tool pieces made from old piano keys.

More commonly these days the ivory pieces can be had from knife makers as remnants of their handle making.

 

It is extremely rare that I use them. They can be pinpoint precise, or a nub like one finer than deerhorn can be used to clean an area.

It is work done slowly, over time. Over eager people can scratch through some types of patina.

[Grey Doffin]

You might first try a fiberglass pen. They do a great job on light surface corrosion.

Grey

[TETSUGENDO]

I find damaged victorian ivory handled table knives an ideal source of tool making material.  Avoid the use of bone and antler, unless you know what you are doing and proceed very slowly.  Never use a fiberglass pen (or glass brush) as it will scratch all metals used in the making of Tosogu.  Better yet, let someone who knows what they are doing do the job unless you are sure you are up to it.  

 

-StevenK

[Ken-Hawaii]

My hand is steady, but what I'm not sure about is how much pressure to use to remove the rust, without damaging the patina. I'm not aware of anyone in Hawaii who cleans tsuba.

 

I have antler pieces from when I lived & hunted in Wyoming. How do you tell ivory piano keys from plastic ones? Even the cheap ones look real, including pores.

 

Ken

 

[Henry Wilson]

"How do you tell ivory piano keys from plastic ones?"

 

Use a red hot needle.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, I guess they'd both be stinky, but the ivory would be a lot more organic-smelling, like hair. Thanks, Henry.

 

Ken

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Ken,

 

Use the least amount of pressure that yields a result.  Slow and steady, the lighter the pressure the better.  Because of the fiberous nature of antler it is best avoided when inlays exist.  And as Henry said- use a red hot needle, or simply heat an edge with a lighter.  

The smell will tell.

 

-StevenK

[dirk marshall]

rust removal my favorite hobby, piano keys, used to buy them by the 100's.  use the base units for thick rust, thin side pieces for detail work, never had a problem with damage to the brass inlay.  Extremely easy process.  And you can pretend you are a whaler and do scrimshaw with the remnants.

[dirk marshall]

Difference between plastic and ivory keys is the grain is evident in real ivory

[TETSUGENDO]

There are some old synthetic ivory substitutes that exhibit a "GRAIN", so its presence tells the ignorant nothing of value.  Visual identification of Elephant ivory is not difficult if you have taken the time to familiarize yourself with its characteristics.  

 

-StevenK 

[b.hennick]

Ken, contact someone who tunes or repairs pianos. I can buy then at 10 pieces for $20. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Steven, I have to admit that I've spent zero time familiarizing myself with elephant (or any other) ivory. Just never been on my radar. I was about to beg Dirk to sell me a couple of piano keys, but Barry's post reminded me that one of my fellow Rotarians comes out to tune my wife's baby grand, & I can ask him to sell me a few. Thanks, guys!

 

Very nice tsuba, Dirk!

 

Ken

 

[Stephen]

If not Ken let me know i have a small bit, enough for what you need anyway.  

[Ken-Hawaii]

Dirk was kind enough to mail me several piano keys - thanks! - but now my cleaning has suddenly taken on a whole new aspect.

 

Living in Hawaii, we're prone to one problem that I doubt anyone else has: vog, or volcanic fog. There are huge two volcanic vents on the Big Island to the southeast of us that put out thousands of tons of SO2 & SO4 each & every day, & when the wind blows just wrong, a huge plume of it spreads over Oahu, where I live. I've been slowly & methodically working on cleaning off the rust with small pieces of ivory, & so the tsuba has been sitting out in the open on my table. This morning, I came down to find a distinct greenish tinge to the brass/bronze inlay on my Heianjo, which I'm sure was caused by the heavy vog we're having, as the tinge wasn't there yesterday. So what, if anything, can I do about getting rid of it? I'm pretty sure that using polish of any kind would damage the patina, but I can't think of anything else.

 

I'm glad that I keep all of my other tsuba either under glass or in their boxes!

 

Ken

 

[RobertM]

I seem to remember people on the forum recommending using fiber glass pens for rust removal. Never tried it myself so cant comment.

 

thanks

[rkg]

Robert,

Yeah, that was recommended earlier in this thread/elsewhere, but I did some testing with some scratch pens at the beginning of the year and found you have to be Really Really careful or you scarf up the patina.  I posted the results of what I tried here:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Kod%C3%B4gu-no-Sekai-%E5%B0%8F%E9%81%93%E5%85%B7%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C-266005023454853/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1224333120955367

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1225107050877974&id=266005023454853

I think they'd be useful where you get those little "mountains" of rust or on a piece or were the patina is hopeless anyway (they do a number on fire scale for example), but working around inlays and or where a piece is in otherwise good shape and you want the cleaned area to match the existing patina... not so much...  But then again I'm more picky than a lot of people, so YMMV....

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

I seem to remember people on the forum recommending using fiber glass pens for rust removal. Never tried it myself so cant comment.

 

thanks

[PhoenixDude]

I would just leave it.

[Stephen]

IM sure Ford sensei could take you there

[AnAmNeSiS]

Has anyone used this before?  

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Workshop-Hero-1-gal-Metal-Rescue-Rust-Remover-Bath-WH290487/203247483

 

In addition to being new to sword collecting, I also collect Metal Lunch Boxes. (Nerd alert) I have used this on the old school thermos that comes with the lunch box.  If you use it correctly, it works great without damaging the graphics.

 

I have never used this on iron or copper based metals before.  But it should have the same affect.  

 

Dave

[b.hennick]

SHUDDER never have never will.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dave,

Very bad idea.  Until you know a lot more about Nihonto than you currently do, refrain from any and all attempts to fix anything.  Not saying that you in particular are unqualified to attempt repair; I would say that about any beginner.  It is very easy to make seriously expensive mistakes with Japanese swords.

Grey

[AnAmNeSiS]

Grey - You are quite right.  I do not take any offence to your words here, actually just the opposite.  

 

I would never use any cleaning agent on any part of a Japanese sword; however, Ken had mentioned that he might have to use a polishing agent to get the rust/volcanic dust off his tsuba.  So, if he is going to have to use something I was wondering if any of the long term collectors ever tried this product before? Looks like that would be a definite NO.  

 

Dave

[Ken-Hawaii]

Interesting idea, Dave, but I'm going to pass on it. The green film is obviously some type of sulfide, but I have no idea whether the inlay is brass, bronze, or some other alloy. At least I know it's not gold, or it wouldn't have tarnished! 

 

I'm a chemical engineer & my wife is a chemist, so we're researching what, if anything, will dissolve copper, zinc, & tin sulfides, while not attacking iron or steel - no luck so far. I've given up on rust removal for the moment, as the green patina is a LOT more noticeable! 

 

I'm also wondering why this particular tsuba was affected by the vog, when the other couple of dozen Heianjo (which I'm sure were sitting out during other vog episodes) weren't.

 

Ken

 

[IJASWORDS]

Remind me again why it is ok to remove rust (metal) from an old TSUBA, and not a rust from a old NIHONTO? Just asking....Neil.   

[Teimei]

_{Hi Neil,}

 

_{the only rust that schould be removed is red (active) rust.}

_{The black rust we see on nakago is inactive and actually works as a protection-layer. It needs quite some time to develop the "good" (black) rust and thats why it schould be left alone.} 

 

 

_regards,

[ROKUJURO]

Ken,

I have encountered this same problem, when a greased leather sheath came into contact with brass or nickel silver (German silver/Alpacca) parts on knives. I was told that the grease, tannic acid and copper alloys (also with nickel) can react chemically and produce this green substance which I always could wipe off with a dry cloth.

As there is no gold on you TSUBA, could that be a similar process?



  

...... The green film is obviously some type of sulfide, but I have no idea whether the inlay is brass, bronze, or some other alloy. ......

[Ken-Hawaii]

I tried wiping off the green patina, Jean, first with a Kleenex & then with a microfiber cloth, but nothing came off on either of them, & the green remains. I even tried using the ivory piano key to gently rub the inlay, but no luck there, either. I'm trying to get my hands on some carbon disulfide (CS2), which I remember will dissolve sulfur & its compounds, but it's been reclassified as as toxic, & I haven't found a local source (forget about shipping it to Hawaii!). My wife tried some acetone, carbon tetrachloride, & ethanol, but no luck with any of those. Has anyone tried cleaning a tsuba using plain old boiling water? I also have a small steam generator that I use to clean jewelry that I make as a hobby, but I'm hesitant to try it. Same for my ultrasonic cleaner. Ford, any advice?

 

There was a lot of vog for two days when this happened - it made the news because so many people were hacking & coughing - but since it come from a volcano & carried by wind currents, there's not a heck of a lot that humans can do to avoid vog. If you're curious, you can click on http://mkwc.ifa.hawaii.edu/vmap/hysplit/hawso4.cgi to see the SO4 plume - I'm on the second island from the top (Oahu). I feel sorry for people who live on the Big Island, & have vog all the time!

 

Ken