Katakiri-Ba

[Simon]

I have an unusual katana (65cm) which is Katakiri ba on one side and slightly rounded at the shoulder on the other side, Maru mune with no Yakote or shinogi.....an opening in the end of the nakago shows the blade has hundreds of layers so was folded.....looks to be ubu...  the blade needs a polish to show the ji

[Brian]

You are going to need to post pics. Also, you should not be able to see layers as such. That sounds more like a modern "damascus" type blade. Japanese swords aren't really in layers.

[Simon]

Yes.....thanks.....at the very end of the nakago there  is a slight protrusion caused it seems by an old impact which has puchered the steel...with a loop these laminations can be seen running at about 20 degrees from the vertical ...using  a graticule  I was able to estimate the number over the thickness of the tang end....

[ROKUJURO]

Simon,

as Brian said: No layers should be visible, a 'Japanese' NAKAGO is carefully crafted. 

No judgement is possible without detailed, well focused photos of the whole blade without HABAKI.

[Simon]

I will get some pictures together.....

On judgements i have seen Judgement exercises ( appraisals) where raw data is given without images ......I suppose to test expertise.....I thought that the raw data was crucial..indeed when swords are sold many images are shown along with measurements...in the case of my sword no hamon or Ji can be sufficiently discerned because of the state of polish...so surely the raw numbers must give an indication, how else would a polisher take that first step in polishing a sword which showed no activity in the steel....if he had no idea at all

 On the visible laminations they are indeed there....visible under a x 20 loop ....as I said a small area at the very end of the tang shows impact damage ..so they are visible...they can be seen nowhere else on the tang....I calculate 8 folds .........I don t know what is normal for certain schools or smiths but I have heard that 12 is average.......

[Gordon Sanders]

Simon, I am a newbie here but pictures are relevant because people want to see the overall shape of the sword and also the file marks on the tang. Think of Japanese swords as art you wouldn't evaluate art by looking at the number of colors in a painting you would look at how the brushstrokes moved those colors

[Jean]

Simon,

 

You can learn by heart all the different combinations with different kind of hada, hamon... and give, in such kind of kantei, a good answer. It will take years and be useless if you have not seen the real things by thousand and know what these terms mean in reality.

 

But, in such kantei game, one must be a real expert to give all the data.

[ROKUJURO]

Simon,

once again: a 'fold' is not the same as a layer. If you start to forge a damascus blade (which is not at all the same as a Japanese swordblade) with a package of 10 sheets of different steel alloys, you get 20 layers with one fold.

The parts of a traditional Japanese swords are forged from mono-steel (= folded with the same steel) although in their final structure, they are mostly composite constructions of different steels. 

It may be difficult for you to see the features in your blade, but a trained polisher may well be capable to tell if it is a Japanese blade at all, the probable period it was made, and the province or even school.

A KANTEI without seeing the blade is ridiculous in my eyes. That would be like identifying and relating a handwriting to a certain person just by data without seeing the script.  

[Simon]

Sorry for the delay.....I have posted images of the sword and the tang area....The Nagasa  is 66cm long...it is rather dirty but is very solid....no ji is visible but there are indications of one within the fine surface dirt..which seems to attach itself differentially to the surface in areas

I have tried to show the very end of the tang which shows a slight protrusion....this is a pushed and flattened area where the tang was impacted...under a x 20 loop laminations can be seen  running at a slight angle from the vertical....I have estimated over 200 but less than 500.....

again there is no shinogi and the two sides of the sword are different...one very slightly rounded, the other with a shoulder out from the mune....and the mune is maru mune.........

[paulb]

Simon

Sorry but based on these images I have a lot of internal alarm bells sounding. There are so many things that dont look right. Firstly the Nakago looks very much like a Chinese fake. It is possible it has just been messed with but when you combine that ith the strange geometry the overall shape nd the condition I have grave doubts as to it's authenticity..

I could well be wrong so hear what others have to say before coming to any judgemnt

regards

Paul

[raaay]

Simon sorry,

 

but I have to agree with Paul here it is looking like a copy ! mekugi-Ana in the wrong position to start with and it looks

like a modern drilled hole and just a poor tang shape over all, but better photos will definitely help to be 100% sure about

this blade, and it also looks like the machi do not line up also , classic fake detail I am afraid.

[Ken-Hawaii]

One glance at the sugata, & alarm bells should be ringing, Simon. The problem is that you don't yet have the experience to recognize what should jump out at you. Add to that your "layering" comment, & it screams fake.

 

Ken

 

[Simon]

Thank you guys good input........although I don t quite see fake yet. ....I see unusual , all of those points you mentioned  made me originally look hard at it.... I have been buying and selling swords for some 15 years to date .... I am no authority but there is something strange about this one..... I recently had one of my good gut feelings,  a mumei blade ; ..come back from Shinsa as an early  15th century  Nio Kiyotsuna  ...  once I do see fake i will put it to work in my garden...lol.....I ll hang on a bit and do more research..........I will post anything i do find...thankyou