Ji Nie Question

[FletchSan]

Hi All,

 

I have recently picked up a new sword that has an abundance of nie along the blade (at least that is what I think it is). Unlike the nie that I typically see that flows off the hamon into the ji this seems somewhat disconnected from the hamon and is randomly scattered across the blade.

 

Is this just referred to as ji-nie or is there another term for it?

Is it intentional and a kantei point that may help identify the school and/or period?

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[paulb]

Hi Ben

It may be the images but to me that does not look like nie. Having said that I am not sure what it is. As in the hamon ji-nie is bright and looks "hard". in terms of size it can vary from ko-to ara-nie which tends to look quite course. Regarding naming, other structures such as chickei are made up of the same material as nie (martensite) and are formed as the indiviudual nie crystals merge together.

The marking on your blade could be darker steel appearing in the jigane or it could be some form of discoloration.

I have seen something similar in a Rai Kuniyuki blade where it is described as "fern pattern". It looks rather like snake skin but appears within the hamon not the jihada.

[FletchSan]

Thanks Paul. Very interesting. Here are a few more pictures hopefully showing it a little more clearly. Not easy to photograph.

 

Ben

[paulb]

Hi Ben

It is an interesting sword and your second set of images are certainly a better indication of the quality. To be honest after looking at them I am not sure what it is I am seeing. it looks too flat to be nie (visually flat nor geometrically) but that may be the polish.

What else do you know about the sword? does it have an attribution?

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, what Paul said.

I have the impression that this feature might come out differently with another polish. This looks as if too hard a stone was used to grind everything flat. With a careful and much longer work on a soft UCHI GUMORI, it might show what it really is. 

[FletchSan]

No attribution - it's not papered. I believe (hope) it may be Koto, perhaps early Koto just based on the usual Kantei. It is also o-suriage so would have been a reasonable length originally.

[paulb]

Can you let us see some images of the whole sword and give some dimensions?

 It looks quite substantial which would suggest if it is old it would be late Kamakura or nambokucho but withouts dimensions that is pure guesswork and the images may be misleading.

[FletchSan]

Sure thing.

 

Nagasa:        65.0 cm

Sori:              1.4 cm.
Motohaba:     29 mm

Sakihaba:      19 mm
Motogasane:  6 mm

Sakigasane:   4.5 mm
Nakago:         20.3 cm

 

 

[ggil]

better pictures please? Any clubs in your area, or anyone close by wanting to check it out (duh all of us!)???

[Thekirsh]

Ben,

In case you didn't buy your sword from this seller, here is a detailed description of it when it was on consignment.

http://japanesesword.com.au/html/early_koto_katana_with_koshirae.html

 

Simon K

[FletchSan]

Yes, same sword - thanks Simon.

 

The description is from the owner prior to the previous owner and not verified. Not sure how much credence to give it.

Would be amazing if it was a 13th century yamashiro-den sword and something very romantic about it being owned by a Japanese Iaido sensei that just never happened to have it papered

 

It will be a fun one to research and is a beautiful sword in hand. I'll try to take better quality photos in the sunlight tomorrow.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[paulb]

Hi Ben

Thanks for the images and for the additional information. As always opinions will vary on a mumei blade and as you get earlier the differences can often blur.

From your description of tight itame with masame and from the shape my first instinct would be Yamato rather than Yamashiro and late Kamakura or Nambokucho. So 1320 -1390. I certainly feel that the 1200-1300 is a little optimistic, the sword just looks too robust.

Also a good indicator for an early sword is to look at the last 6 inches towards the kissaki. In older swords this is often almost straight. As you get a little later the sori increases towards the kissaki (saki-zori). Your blade looks to have a very even curve which also leads towards the slightly later date.

Overall it is a good looking thing

Congratulations

Paul

[CSM101]

I think I found a sword with almost the same effect. Look at the left side.

 

 

Uwe G.

[Ron STL]

My first impression when seeing the photos reminded me of an osuriage wakizashi the recently was given Tokubetsu Hozon to Enju den.

Ron STL

[Ken-Hawaii]

Uwe, I'm pretty sure that your example shows ara-nie, which is different than what Ben has on all over his jihada. I'm tending to agree with Jean that it's polish-related, as there's no obvious pattern, & the dark spots don't flow into chikei-like streaks. It's be interesting to see this blade in hand.

 

Ken

 

[SAS]

OP, looks like konuka hada to my eyes.

[eternal_newbie]

I was the one who sold this blade to Ben. As it is now on its way back to me, I think it's my place to reveal the bad news. He took it to a professional togishi, who revealed that the oddities are almost certainly the result of a retempering (or fire damage). In addition, much of the hamon is actually fake (by the hadori polish) - enough traces of it remain to give the impression of completeness when held under the right lighting if you aren't sufficiently experienced/eagle-eyed.

 

I'm not sure if the previous buyer was aware of this and chose not to disclose it, but given that I was sufficiently fooled enough to resell it, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I confess that I couldn't quite make out the details of the hamon in the kissaki, although I assumed that was just due to the polish as I've seen a couple NBTHK-papered blades with boshi that looked similarly indistinct to my eye.

 

At any rate, looks like I need to do a lot more research - if I can't spot a fake hamon, I suspect a Juyo token sword would be wasted on me...

[paulb]

Dear Rohan

dont beat yourself up too much. I have been studying this subject for most of my adult life and although I wasn't happy with the idea that what was visible was nie I didnt pick up that it may have been burned or retempered from the images. Likewise the polished in hamon if done well can often fool the eye.

The trick is always to point it towards a single naked light source and view along the length of the blade. If the hamon is there it will show as a distinct line, if it is polished in or broken you can see it quite clearly. (sorry you may already know this but reminders sometimes help)

BTW looking at good quality pieces is never wasted but it is always best to do it with someone who has greater experience and can answer questions that may arise. I am always happiest viewing swords with someone else and talking about what I think I am seeing.

[Brian]

Rohan,

Very ethical of you to take it back like that. Well done....good to have sellers with ethics.
I think there are far more fire damaged and retempered swords out there in our collections than we would like to know about. They can be very difficult to spot, and there are plenty of tricks that can be done to hide that fact.
It happens. Sorry to hear this. Maybe it will make a decent iai sword or have some other purpose.

[Valric]

Very ethical indeed. 

 

I am however unsure of the ethics of the website on which it was posted. 

 

Seller states on his website 

 

"And has a healthy temper at the point" 

 

If anything can be gleaned from those pictures is that there is no boshi. Why would a seller emphasis a "healthy boshi" in the absence of one really does befuddle me. Unless it's for deception purposes. 

 

Unless of course there is a boshi-like hadori line that we really cannot spot from the pictures. It's tricky. 

[eternal_newbie]

Please don't hold this against the owner of that website - he simply posted up the wording I provided, which was essentially the description given to me by the previous owner. He is blameless in the matter and the fault lies entirely with the previous seller (who, surely coincidentally, I can no longer reach) and myself for failing to adequately verify that the description was indeed accurate.

 

That being said, I think it's best if that blade and the description were to be removed; I will contact the website's owner and get it taken down, if for no other reason than to preserve his good name.

 

Edit: and yes, there is a boshi-like hadori line - you can see it (faintly) in this picture. It even has turnback at the top!

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by eternal_newbie

[nagamaki - Franco]

I was the one who sold this blade to Ben. As it is now on its way back to me, I think it's my place to reveal the bad news. He took it to a professional togishi, who revealed that the oddities are almost certainly the result of a retempering (or fire damage). In addition, much of the hamon is actually fake (by the hadori polish) - enough traces of it remain to give the impression of completeness when held under the right lighting if you aren't sufficiently experienced/eagle-eyed.

 

I'm not sure if the previous buyer was aware of this and chose not to disclose it, but given that I was sufficiently fooled enough to resell it, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I confess that I couldn't quite make out the details of the hamon in the kissaki, although I assumed that was just due to the polish as I've seen a couple NBTHK-papered blades with boshi that looked similarly indistinct to my eye.

 

At any rate, looks like I need to do a lot more research - if I can't spot a fake hamon, I suspect a Juyo token sword would be wasted on me...

 

 

Hello Rohan,

 

Collecting nihonto has to rate as one of the more challenging practices anyone can take on, sooooo much to know and learn. In 25 + years of study there have been a number of occasions where even advanced collectors overlooked and missed what they should have otherwise realized. Retempered swords and drawn in hamons are among those things. It wasn't until I began collecting nihonto that I became a cynic. 

 

 In the words of a good friend, ''when it comes to collecting Japanese swords, it's just when you begin to think you know something that you actually find out how little you really know.'' 

[md02geist]

Rohan,

Very ethical of you to take it back like that. Well done....good to have sellers with ethics.

I think there are far more fire damaged and retempered swords out there in our collections than we would like to know about. They can be very difficult to spot, and there are plenty of tricks that can be done to hide that fact.

It happens. Sorry to hear this. Maybe it will make a decent iai sword or have some other purpose.

 

 

 

I'm sure it would still make a wonderful iai blade, and there is still quite a lot of history behind it even if it's not in the form we'd all love it to be in.