Evidence Of Reversed Menuki In History?

[Katsujinken]

Hi folks,

 

I'm curious if anyone here has ever seen any evidence of menuki being "reversed" (so they settle into the palms and not the fingers when the tsuka is gripped).

 

It's a not uncommon choice among sword practitioners of certain styles today, and some claim it has a historical basis and improves grip and sensitivity.

 

Nakamura Taizaburo writes that the standard placement today – what he calls the Edo style – came about after the need for combat subsided, but that prior to that the menuki were in opposite positions as described above.

 

What say you, fine NMBers? Is there any historical evidence?

[Derek]

Hi Michael,

As I recall, Yagyu koshirae often exhibit reversed menuki placement.

[Katsujinken]

Ah yes, Yagyu Ryu is one of the schools known for doing this, but I had no idea there were extant koshirae that we could refer to. Very cool.

[Derek]

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b997-owari-and-yagyu-koshirae

[Katsujinken]

I love this board.

[Ford Hallam]

The 1985 Tokyo National Museum exhibition, and catalogue 1987, "Uchigatana-goshirae"  might be worth examining for evidence of what early Edo, and earlier, menuki placements might have been.

 

From a  quick browse though I'd suggest that the usual placement we see today, ie: under the finger tips, was most common even back then.     Thare are a number of tsuka illustrated that look pretty ancient and to have seen campaign use. Where there are menuki present, not always the case, they are in the usual position.

 

I think there is an unfortunate modern tendency to insist that everything on the sword has a functional reason for being there and while this may have some basis in terms of thing's origins true functionality is easily forgotten.   The earliest hilt ornaments we might equate with menuki are 'tawara-byo'. There are the little gilt 'rice straw bales' that act as rivets to secure the same in place on kazari-tachi koshirae. In my opinion menuki evolved from these and I think attempts to try to imply a purely functional reason for them (menuki) being on the sword might miss the reality that they more likely had votive or talismanic meaning and/or were to an extent fashion/status signifiers.

[DirkO]

In the Daijisen dictionary (大辞泉, publisher Shôgakukan Inc, 小学館) menuki are described the following way: „Menuki (目貫), originally referring to the mekugi (目釘). Later a rivet-like ornament on the top of the mekugi which is visible on the sword hilt. Became later an independent decorative element of the sword hilt.“

 

Extract from the NBTHK-EB translation by Markus Sesko of "Menuki – Sono rekishi to igi ni tsuite" - 目貫・その歴史と意義について - "About the History and Meaning of menuki"

Iiyama Yoshimasa (飯山嘉昌) tôsô and tôsôgu expert Tôken-Bijutsu 9-2011, Nr. 656

[Brian]

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19869-menuki-orientation/

[Katsujinken]

Enlightening! Thank you Brian.

[Ford Hallam]

Just to add to the present accepted understanding of what menuki are/were I will quote  Arai Hakuseki (1657 - 1725) from his Honcho Gunkiko (Eighth Book).

 

"menuki are things to put through the menuki hole (menuki ana) , to prevent the blade of the sword from coming out of the handle."

 

[According to Japanese custom the term me (eye) is used to describe all sorts of holes, as, for instance, hikime (frog's eye), Inome (wild boar eye), etc.]

目 me = eye

貫 nuki =  crosspiece (between pillars, etc.); penetrating tie beam, to penetrate, to brace.

 

Hakuseki goes on to say;

" At the present day (circa 1700?) a mekugi is used in place of a menuki (to hold the blade) , and the menuki has become of no (practical) use."

 

So what actually happened was the name of the peg changed from menuki to mekugi. Then little ornaments were invented, with no practical function, and ended up being called menuki, which makes no sense at all.

 

If you're interested in learning a little about this Edo period authority you'll find more on Wikipedia here.

 

"Arai Hakuseki (新井 白石^?, March 24, 1657 – June 29, 1725) was a Confucianist, scholar-bureaucrat, academic, administrator, writer and politician in Japan during the middle of the Edo Period, who advised the Shogun Tokugawa Ienobu.^[1][2] His personal name was Kinmi or Kimiyoshi (君美). Hakuseki (白石) was his pen name. His father was a Kururi han samurai Arai Masazumi (新井 正済)."

[Ford Hallam]

Another little titbit to add to the story here. Something I happened on by accident this morning in the index of Henri Joly's  Sword and Same.

 

"Menuki: During the Fujiwara Period (presumably the Heian Period, 794–1185. ) rice bale shaped dummy rivets called sora menuki were placed on the haft (tsuka) , so that the lower edge of the nakago had to be notched to escape them."

[John A Stuart]

You could call the menuki of the Uchigatana, Katana etc., Soramenuki, 'sora' meaning 'fake'. I think, Menuki actually refers more to the pierced hole itself, which we call Mekugiana now. The terminology has evolved. I wonder why the Nakago had to be notched? There was no actual rivet in the ornamental rice bale Menuki of the swords'  mentioned by Joly was there? John

[Ford Hallam]

According to Markus Sesko's Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords sora menuki are imitation/fake menuki or ornamental menuki, whereas actual menuki were the peg and called makoto menuki, true menuki.

 

Sora menuki, also called kasari menuki, came in to fashion from the Nambokucho period onwards.

 

 

 

 

 

I think, Menuki actually refers more to the pierced hole itself, which we call Mekugiana now.

 

To  refer to Arai Hakuseki again (1657 - 1725) from his Honcho Gunkiko (Eighth Book).

 

"menuki are things to put through the menuki hole (menuki ana) , to prevent the blade of the sword from coming out of the handle."

[John A Stuart]

A pic illustrating the rice bail soramenuki referenced earlier. John

[Belisarius]

Hi folks,

 

I'm curious if anyone here has ever seen any evidence of menuki being "reversed" (so they settle into the palms and not the fingers when the tsuka is gripped).

 

It's a not uncommon choice among sword practitioners of certain styles today, and some claim it has a historical basis and improves grip and sensitivity.

 

Nakamura Taizaburo writes that the standard placement today – what he calls the Edo style – came about after the need for combat subsided, but that prior to that the menuki were in opposite positions as described above.

 

What say you, fine NMBers? Is there any historical evidence?

 

The Menuki was ALWAYS on the palm side, relative to the dominant hand of the swordsman. From Heian until Edo. In Edo it changed. The obvious reason (and it took me a few hours to visualize), is combat grip. Koto gloves. Snow Rain Ice Mud Muck and Blood, all things encountered on modern battlefields, from antiquity until today. Same consideration. It is not just hockey players that modify their stick for grip, baseball players, but many others that depend on grip. Tennis players. Be it they play in ideal conditions.

 

Even in cycling, below 10C, with speed, sensation is lost fast. The gloves and handlebars require a good feel as most motions are done without looking down.

 

In battle condition, with kotos, the hand is actually bigger and there is a significant decrease in grip. The Menuki, and its texture, helped with grip, as well, of course, to orient the blade, such as nightime. Am sure quite a few took a swing and the blade twisted. If it was night, it may not be easily obvious. With the Menuki on the palm side, this became an easy fix.

 

During Edo, Samurai became refined gentlemen and bureaucrats, and combat grip considerations subsided. Kotos became a thing of the past. Quite possibly, Japanese hands were too small for a tsuka with Menuki (again, a non-issue with Kotos), so it was moved to the finger side.

[Barrie B]

mmm... I thought I read somewhere (Markus Sesko maybe?) that Menuki were originally always placed under the palms when Tachi were more commonly used. With the evolution/ development of the Katana (and Wakizashi), (with the cutting edge now up instead of down), the Menuki were not moved, due to tradition maybe..? Although, of course, they are (orientated) the right way up on Katana (and Wakizashi) when worn, as opposed to being upside down. I am away from home at the moment so cannot check my books. Or I might just be totally wrong..!

 

Either way, it is a good subject to discuss.

 

As for extant examples of Menuki under the palms, I have - on one of my daisho - Menuki orientated in the Yagyu Ryu style. That is, with the Menuki placed under the palms when holding a sword for combat, and in fact, on the Wakizashi, there is only one Menuki. The other Menuki is not missing; being a one handed sword (sho), there is only one Menuki that resides under the palm when held - albeit by the right hand.   

 

These are not Yagyu Daisho; just the Menuki placement is in the Yagyu Ryu style. 

 

BTW, of all my Koshirae, these are the only ones with this orientation for the Menuki. So not very common..  

 

Barrie.

 

[Lance]

Another little titbit to add to the story here. Something I happened on by accident this morning in the index of Henri Joly's  Sword and Same.

 

"Menuki: During the Fujiwara Period (presumably the Heian Period, 794–1185. ) rice bale shaped dummy rivets called sora menuki were placed on the haft (tsuka) , so that the lower edge of the nakago had to be notched to escape them."

 

 

The sword  Ō-Kanehira"seems to have one of these notches (and an additional little pin hole ana) 

I think the pic below was used for the cover Metropolitan Museum's  Arts of the Samurai exhibit  catalog.  

  

 Regards,

Lance 

[dir]

Sorry to come to this topic so late - but there were one or two interesting things said and I thought a) some of you might be interested in the images below, and b) someone might be able to give me more info.

 

I have just obtained four menuki (one hollow, two solid, and one undetermined at present as I have not yet removed the shishi) with what I presume are back plates. I have not been able to find out much about these apart from one solitary "ad". Markus Sesko in his discussion of menuki in his Handbook of Sword Fittings and related Terms alludes to the kon (root, small stem on the back of some menuki) which is a remnant of the earlier makoto-meuki (true menuki) which combined the function of menuki and mekugi. Pure ornamental menuki without attached mekugi were then called sora-menuki (empty/imitation menuki). Hawley in his 600 Japanese sword fittings terms notes that the mekugi was an earlier term for menuki - a bamboo peg/metal rivet to hold the blade tang to the hilt. In the ear;y days, the rivet consisted of male and female pieces the heads of which had decorative carvings in the Tokugawa period. he further says that the menuki was a rivet made of metal - the decorative fitting to be put over the rivet on the side of the hilt.

 

So far so good and all known! But - where do these plates come in? If they are meant to be behind the menuki they would be visible since they are not the same size. I have never seen such plates. The shishi menuki has still attached at the back two strong wires at either side which go right through the board which displays them. I have quite a few menuki and I have never seen any with such wires, though some look as if they might have been present at some time. I assume the wires would go through the holes in the plates. but would they also go through the tang with the plate on the other side, or would they just go through the hilt and sit between the inner edge or side of the hilt and the tang? 

 

Thanks and regards

 

David

 

[Katsujinken]

The plates could be later additions if the menuki were modified for use on something other than a tsuka (like a tobacco pouch, coin purse, etc.)

[Tanto54]

Hi David,

 

As Michael said, these are tobacco pouch ornaments and the back plate is the "snap" that keeps the tobacco pouch cover closed.  The ornament is attached to the back plate through the leather/fabric flap via the two thin wire posts, that's why the plate can be bigger than the ornament (because it is hidden behind the leather/fabric flap).  These ornaments are sometimes converted menuki, but we would need to see the backs of yours to know for sure (but based on the looks of the fronts, most of yours were probably not ever menuki).

 

 

 

 

[dir]

Ah - thank you! That certainly fits the bill I think. I collect tsuba and other sword fittings, and am unfamiliar with the inside of tobacco pouches etc. I'll remove the objects from the board and send a photo of the backs for interest. I think, though, my "menuki" would be rather small to be the decorative outer piece. I will give measurements.

 

Thanks and regards

 

David

[dir]

Here are the backs of the "menuki" and plates. The top left (3.8cm) is solid and has a small wire remnant at left, with one wire squarish pin in the plate (3.9cm). The one at top right (4cm) has one central post (?) with no wire attached, the plate (3.5cm) has one squarish pin. Bottom left (3.5cm) is solid and has two wires, the plate (3.5) also has a single thicker square pin. Bottom right (4cm) has two wires projecting - though I think it is actually one long wire that appears to run through a sort of tube; the plate (3.8cm) has a thicker pin which seems to have been slit at the end.

 

Regards

 

David   

Edited February 26, 2021 by dir
Reached upload limit

[Tanto54]

Dear David,

 

You said that you think that your items are too small to be the decorative outer piece of a tobacco pouch.  However, those decorative tobacco fittings come in many sizes, including those that are smaller than standard menuki (see photo below).  The photo of the backside and the plates of your four items confirm 100% that these were kanagu (fittings or snaps) for tobacco or money pouches.  Unfortunately, the photo of the backs that you provided is at an angle that does not let me tell you whether any of them are converted from menuki (I need to see a "straight on" photo of the backs).  I've attached a photo of one of the things that I would look for below.  The black oval shows were the single rectangular menuki pin was and the two yellow rectangles show where the later two kanagu (tobacco pouch ornament) pins were, so the one pictured below was originally a menuki and was later adapted to be a tobacco pouch pin (and then later someone removed the tobacco pouch pins).

 

[dir]

Your responses, George, prompted me to look at the back of all my other menuki to recall what was on the back. In virtually every case there is the small stem/root - presumably the kon as described by Sesko (and these were mainly bought from well-known auction houses in Germany and Austria with Japanese specialities and experts). In only a very few cases are there remnants on both sides of a wire fastening - and at least one of these has areas similar to what you show within the yellow box, and a couple still have the kon as well as the wire ends. 

 

Regarding the four I showed, I did try and upload a straight on image, but it seems I had reached my size limit! I thought it might be more important to see the wires. In fact only the one at top right has the kon. The other three do not appear to have had it removed. I'll try and upload the pic again. No - it won't let me do that. Let me try a screenshot - nope! Sorry!

 

Just for info - these four were sent to a Dutch dealer friend of mine, who because he cannot travel to Japan at this time, gets consignments of all small things Japanese sent to him now and then by an antique dealer he knows over there and these were in the latest box (along with a tsuba). He thought I might be interested and indeed I was!

 

I have learned something new and even though they might not be real menuki, they are still interesting objects for me!

 

I appreciate your time and knowledge!

 

Thanks and regards

 

David

[Tanto54]

Dear David,

 

I am happy that I could help.  Just to be clear, I think that kanagu are wonderful things and many are very highly regarded by collectors (at the same level as menuki).  Just like menuki, there are good ones and bad ones.  Many famous tosogu makers also made kanagu (like Natsuo).  So in my opinion, nothing wrong with them being tobacco pouch fittings.