Jump to content
nagamaki - Franco

Attention Namban Collectors ....

Recommended Posts

While I can appreciate the rarity, i just dont think the workmanship is that good. Am i missing something? Maybe its just the design that puts me off  :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I can appreciate the rarity, i just dont think the workmanship is that good. Am i missing something? Maybe its just the design that puts me off  :dunno:

That is the main problem i have with Nanban tosogu. The style doesn't really attract me either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you are missing anything

A work of Art it is not

Price can only be due to rarity and I've not seen one before  but do I want too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i can not agree to these "discrepancie´s" at all here...

 

i do agree...it is, like everything, just a matter of taste (and knowledge)....

 

a schoolar into Tosogu sometimes but, does encounter objects which just are interesting, not?

if we equally do keep in mind that especially the Myochin were strongly involved into Nanban work....it is getting really fascinating but....

 

maybe Fred is willing so to post some of his thoughts on this Futakoromono ?

i am pretty shure- he could tell a lot! ;-)

 

Christian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He won't post in a forum, not a chance.
But me....I like it a lot.Think they are great, and would happily own them anyday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first impression was the same as Robert above.  However, on a second glance, the lattice work and restrained figure renditions remind me of the Ezo style and are quite pleasing.  Maybe some evidence that Ezo style is more a derivative of China than an indigenous Tohoku style.  ;-)

 

It is interesting that kogatana is connected to the kozuka.  Interesting stuff indeed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brian - this is Danny Massey's site, not Fred's.  Nihontocraft.com

 

I believe the kogatana/kozuka might have been forged as one and the 'kozuka' is the equivalent of a nakago made from lower carbon steel which has been carved.  Very interesting set indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry...Danny, not Fred. But same applies to either, neither will do forums :glee:
But yes..I agree with you that I also saw it as forged in one, and that makes it even more attractive in my eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK Brian, yes I can respond ..I just like to read the form.

 

This set is the only set I have ever seen and truly early Namban and both having a one piece construction and to be together for generation after generation shows the importance of this set.

Yes I agree they are not late Edo Kyoto bling but a set of very early K/K. I ask this one question show me a set of this age that are not Daimyo owned and kept in a important family collection that are not 30K plus as this set is the time of Goto Tokujo ...what would that set cost??? 

I would not just say look at the Namban set but WOW look at the set of Momoyama K/K set !! Will ask again ...show me another set for sale???? So blow the photos up and put it in your memory bank, and think of the time these were made!!!! 

 

 

 

Fred               

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies Fred, it is great when we do hear from you :)
This set grown on me every time I look at them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming back to real life :) , is there any reason why gunome zogan does not apply both sides of the kogai and kozuka? I guess the side along the saya did not need any decoration. But on namban tsuba when there is gunome zogan, it is usually on both sides. Any clues?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to see how the kogatana is fixed to the kozuka :)

 

 

:(  It's one piece or not?

 

Sorry but i look often on that piece and i can't see the worth. It's a Kogatana in Namban Style.  :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fred, Not Muromachi Jidai I suspect but just possibly Momoyama Jidai. I have always believed, and still do, that the whole namban tsuba fashion kicked off from war trophies collected during the invasions of Korea. Some tsuba have every appearance of having been taken from Chinese swords, having narrow rectangular seppadai that are decorated - sometimes with hitsu ana punched through the original, pierced decoration. Had they been planned as Japanese tsuba from the start, why would they not have regular seppadai? John Lissenden had a namban fuchi (and possibly the matching kashira) and the Royal Armouries has a namban kogatana, both of which have iron panels fretted with tendrils in the usual way and then applied to gilded bases. The latter has been made to fit a tanto mounted for the Matsura of Hirado that has a modified German blade and a saya covered with Dutch leather. This compliments an armour in Hirado made up from a Dutch pikeman's armour - presumably parts of a gift when the Dutch were made to leave their factory on the island and move to Dejima in the 1640's. This suggests the production of these items continued well into the Edo period.

Ian Bottomley

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The kozuka kogai are indeed quite rare.  I've seen a koshirae with all namban fittings ensuite, including the menuki and the kurigata which were very interesting and I've not encountered another set like it since.  The fuchi and kashira had sleeves to provide a back drop for the openwork.  They were iron and would have matched the futokoro set very nicely.  

 

Rarely you can see Namban tsuba in shakudo rather than iron.  But more rarely, this one has had the addition of a Portuguese Christian cross at the top.  Kind of the "Holy Grail" of Namban (pun intended, not apologizing ;-) ).  Also, it has the same cross added to both sides of the tsuba.  Has NBTHK Hozon paper also.

 

post-38-0-64709500-1485203632_thumb.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ted has shown us the Holy Grail, with an NBTHK paper, yet. Still, I am not sure this guard will command the full attention of Namban collectors. I certainly won't argue with the Hozon judges, but...I am suspicious..

Let's say there are at least three different sides to Namban kodogu

1. Most Namban fittings reflect a Japanese  popular interest in "Foreign" motifs. This is like Texans wearing Navajo jewelry - because they like how it looks. There was a fad called "Rampiki' that had lots of Edo period Japanese dandies wearing what they saw as "Dutch" stuff. This fittings are interesting because it reflect Edo period Japanese popular culture. The great bulk of Namban koshirae IMHO is this kind of stuff.

2. Closely related to that stylish stuff, there seems to have been some Japanese who liked truly exotic fittings that could be adjusted to Japanese swords. This includes fittings from China, Korea, and even Europe. For collectors this kind of fitting is interesting because it reflects the international side of Japanese civilization. There was an international side to the Edo period, but some of this stuff MAY date from the pre-Edo period. My personal opinion is that MOST of these materials dates from the Edo period.

3, Finally, there MAY be some "Namban" stuff that reflects membership in political, commercial, or sectarian groups."VOC" on a tsuba might mean a guy was working the Ditch East India Company, but every kid wearing a Steelers jersey is not a pro football player. The Cross on Ted's tsuba  would get the wearer killed after the early 1600s. That presentation also hardly qualifies as as a "Hidden" presentation. It is a fine tsuba, but I am suspicious, Since the Meiji period there has been interest in the "Kakure Kirishitan" and a market for evidence of Christianity in Japan. How can we be sure that the cross was not a rather later addition to tsuba that would otherwise fit in category #1 above?

Peter

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Peter.  You present some interesting opinions.  

 

First of all, I posted it as an example of Namban style in shakudo, not as a focus of christian artifacts.  The cross addition is just a neat aside to the tsuba as a rarely encountered type in the overall body of works we see.  Yes, of course it was added later.  The paper says "later addition" also, but without any indications of period for either the tsuba, or the added element of the cross which no one could reasonably know. "Later" being any time after the original manufacture of the guard is also very subjective; 200 years, 10 years, 20 minutes?  

 

Your three different sides relating to Namban could arguably be applied to a great number of Japanese sword fittings at large.  Fad and fashion played a large part in the design sensibilities that drove many other makers, schools, and styles.  Soten, Hirata, Hirado, Higo, Kumagai, Topei, just to name a few.  Namban is just another, and not a unique way for a bushi or a merchant to outwardly express their personal interests in one of the very limited ways it was possible for them to do so.  

 

So, putting the cross aside for a moment, tell me again why is it that a Namban collector might not be attracted to a papered shakudo Namban tsuba?  :doubt:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...