Ken

[md02geist]

Where do they fit in, in middle and later eras? Ceremonial stuff?

[ROKUJURO]

In the contrary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_sword

[md02geist]

"A straight two edged sword that was produced prior to the 10th century, and may be without differential hardening or folding."

 

"Usually a tanto or wakizashi length religious or ceremonial blade, with a gentle leaf shape and point,^[4] but some may be larger and can also refer to old pre-curve types of swords as above. Symmetrical and double edged."

 

 

There is nothing contrary to what I just said in the link you provided. And I need to add that this isn't a random question I haven't done *any* research on whatsoever. I'm simply wondering if there is any use of them *outside* of the stated ceremonial or religious usage in middle or later period. We see ken made in the Muromachi for instance.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Rob, I'm sure your research has shown that the straight-edged blades predated the curved ones, so are you looking to find out when the term "chokuto" changed into "ken?" Or are you asking whether straight-edged blades were used for anything except ceremonial purposes? I'm guessing the latter, so, probably not. Cutting using the curve of the katana is simply too much more efficient than cutting with a straight edge, so by the time Heian turned into Kamakura (& probably much earlier), there wasn't much practical use for straight-edged blades as weapons. Does that help?

 

Ken

 

[ROKUJURO]

Rob,

that is probably a misunderstanding. The comma let me believe it was a general question, but you were referring to the use of KEN after the introduction of curved blades. Sorry!

I think it is comparable to the use of sabers (19. century) in the West while guns were already in use for a long time. They were probably more a belligerent symbol than of real use as a weapon. In Japan, the KEN has an additional religious meaning. 

[Greg F]

Dont forget the ninjato lol.

 

Greg

[md02geist]

Ken and Jean,

 

Exactly what I was asking; where they fit in *during* the middle and late eras. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase it clearly! I can see where my comma would provide confusion.

 

I was just looking to see if there was actually any use of the ken (or straight edged blades) in actual combat, campaigns, or the like in the middle and late eras or if they simply became entirely regulated to ceremonial and display purposes or what. 

 

For instance like I said we see ken made in the muromachi; I can only assume they were made for ceremonial blades, glorified wallhangers, or the like. Although many of them seem made good quality and ready for combat if necessary; I could only guess that is to show respect for the blade itself and for the smith to show off their abilities.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Short and straight doble edged  swords never had a fighting use in (Yamato ruled and after unification) Japan. In early periods (300-500 C.E.) the ceremonial swords were, generally, either straight and double edged, much like the well known Ken that resembled the ones of the Late Chou Dynasty, or indigenous, snake-like “Meandering Swords” (Dakô-ken) soon replaced by Ken. For ceremonial we could consider also "status symbols" for High rank officials. Longer (partially) double edged blades seems randomly used in the pre-Wanto period.

BTW, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and very far to be academic. Good for quik references that have to be confirmed by more academic means. 

 

Hereunder : Ceremonial (religious) Dako Ken, long combat chokuto and ceremonial (social status and religious) proto-Ken

[md02geist]

Fantastic thank you!