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Possible Ichimonji Yoshifusa Blade?


The_ozzy_samurai

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Hey guys so i had a post a few weeks ago on this sword,well i finally have it in my hands,just a quick run down for those who missed the previous post, i purchased this sword un signed in a scabbard signed Ichimonji Yoshifusa,both blade and scabbard look to be fairly old and writing on scabbard is clearly not from a black marker pen,i can see the blade has those lines under Habkik seen on blades from the old schools,i know his blades have solid gold Habiki's but this has didnt come with one but has gold like flake material wedged in patina in that area only where it looks like habiki originally was,the blades edge looks to have been shortened at some stage the straight line markings on either side of blade are different hieght's

 

The hamon is far better then i expected it has some nice activity even in old polish can be seen the folds look amazing and the blade itself looks to be very well crafted,and crazy razor sharp possibly the sharpest blade i have ever felt,i will try to get a decent camera but these are from my iphone,sorry any opinions on this sword are much appreaciated, could this be a good replica of his work from another school or without getting to excited can it be a great find? the tang is darker then in images not the greatest camera's on iphones hard to capture activity up close with it,thanks guys

 

Julian

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Hello,

 

A few comments.

 

1) When seeking opinions it is most helpful for full length images to be included in order to begin judging age. 

2) Those lines under the habaki are polisher's marks.

3) This is a link http://www.sho-shin.com/okada1.jpg to a known Ichimonji Yoshifusa nihonto for comparison. Additional images can be found of this smith's work online.

4) Your sword imo appears to be a bit on the tired side. It is generally most informative to get a polisher's opinion regarding condition.

 

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Hi Julian

I agree with Fraqnco but would add a couple of other points:

1.

 

,i know his blades have solid gold Habiki's

 

The habaki is irrelevant and is very unlikely to be original. I have seen all ages and schools come with different habaki, they are more dependant on the taste of the user than the smith.

 

2. What little hamon that can be seen on your images (the one near the machi) shows a pointed Mino like hamon from the Momoyama period or later rather than anything like an Ichimonji. The polish also shows no evidence of other activity that you might expect from the school.

 

3. It just doesn't look old enough, despite being tired.

 

As I think was said previously the sayagaki appears to be added either by a hopeful owner or imaginative dealer. it does not confirm authenticity. Remember the term Ichimonji was given to this school by the Emperor Go-Toba in recognition of their exceptional skill, it is often interpreted as meaning  as "1st under heaven" and Yoshifusa was amongst the best of them. looking objectively at your sword does it have that potential?

Also next to Masamune Ichimonji is probably the best known attribution there is. If while in Japan anyone seeing that attribution and thinking there was any hope of it being right would have had it polished and submitted for papers.

 

Sorry I am sounding very negative but at present your belief in this being by Yoshifusa appears to be based on a questionable sayagaki, the fact the blade is sharp  and the type of habaki. As Franco says look at the blade compare it to the illustrated known works by this smith and see if you can see any of his features. From the current images I cant but that doesn't mean they are not there.

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Well i wasnt getting excited,more curious as to what this blade may be,i only ever buy old blades if in war mounts,i have seen a few,this blade to me has so much more detail in it then any others i have seen,my crap phone doesnt do it justice,it looks alot better in the flesh i will try to source a better camera the hamon is better then my images show thats for sure,i will get some measurements and some better images,here is couple full length blade pics basiclly a rough idea of full hamon for the moment,cheer's

 

Julian

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I'm with Franco and Paul: in Japan it's a well known ploy to slap an expensive, solid gold habaki (like the one I attached a picture of) on a mediocre blade to pimp it up. Usually there's always someone who falls for it, so it's a sound investment. Something along the lines of "I got it from an impoverished branch of the Tokugawa, naturally it never was papered. Don't tell anybody!"

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Yours didn't even come with a habaki, but you are going by goldish colouring where the habaki sat?
Afraid not. And the habaki wouldn't have anything to do with the maker anyways. Your sayagaki was poorly done. A real Ichimonji would have a professional sayagaki. You can see the strokes were done by an amateur when writing it. Afraid this isn't a lost treasure.
That said..it does have some very nice activity (Mino school?) in the hamon, and I think you will enjoy studying the parts that are in better polish. It is a bit tired, but looks like you can enjoy it. Not sure it is worth a restoration...or if it is healthy enough to take one...but have it looked at in hand by someone in Oz like Andrew.
It's an ok looking sword. Not a treasure, but not junk either.

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Thanks,its definately got gold spec's wedged in patina it stands out pretty good against the black,my phone doesnt show it well enough,i done enough panning and detecting to spot that gold stuff straight up!!,im sure the value of gold got to tempting for somone and it got sold off or swapped to another sword for sale,i think thats why mine didnt come with one maybe? if this was a real Yoshifusa that would not have been done

 

But good to get reply thats not total negativity i believe this blade is pretty well made,its not junk but not treasure,as i said i have seen a few old blades in WW2 mounts this to me looks alot better made then some signed old blades i have owned,it may have been a mock up Yoshifusa sword for sale at some point but you would have to have a half decent sword to try an pull that off so im sure its fairly good either way,well im happy with it, trust me i didnt spend a mint to get it,you would be quite suprized to know how little i paid,my investment is 100% safe :) so any idea on roughly how old? or are my tang images to bad for that? cheer's

 

Julian

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Hi Julian

You said the most important thing which is you are happy with it. I dont think anyone thinks it is a poor or bad sword, just not up to the standard of Yoshifusa, but if you think about 90%+ swords that exist today aren't up to his standard so yours sits in very good company.

Regarding age it is a real challenge from your images and the state of polish, also some dimensions would really help, we could then try and imagine the original size and shape which would help a ;lot.

my guess and it really is that, would be around 1450-1550 and a Mino based school.

Interested in other views

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Jean,

To be fair to Julian, we are drilled on the fact that the nakago patina is a good indicator of age. Yes, it is easy to fake a patina, and some old patinas are faked...but it is the first thing we do look at to get an idea if something is a Koto, Shinto or Shinshinto. Yes..we are supposed to use shape, but that seldom works for anyone who is a novice, or a sword that is anything but ubu and longer.
So the nakago isn't useless when it comes to age. Of course it is only a hint, but not something to be overlooked either :)

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Brian,

 

I have seen so many nakago altered that I never say something from nakago, above all when we are talking about o suriage ones. I have seen shinshinto blades with such decayed nakago that they could have been kanteied Heian.

 

That is the reason they are not even taken into account in Nyusatsu Kantei and that in Kantei session nakago are hidden.

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Hi Jean and Brian,

I am somewhere between the two of you. Jean I agree with the points you make and viewed in isolation the nakago cannot tell you much, or at least can be used to decieve. However viewing the sugata as a whole can give you an indication of the original shape. Although you are right that the patination of the nakago can be and often has been   manipulated to deceive I think the true colour of a really old nakago (even an O-suriage one) is identifiable, or at least can be an indicator.

I am in danger of misqoting but the old advice I was given was:

Shape indicates age

Ji-hada-tradition

Hamon-School

Boshi- Smith.

The nakago should confirm what everything else has told you.

Having said all that I still think Julian's sword is late Muromachi or Momoyama and something based on Mino.

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"Having said all that I still think Julian's sword is late Muromachi or Momoyama and something based on Mino"

 

Agreed Paul, that's what I wrote.

 

Concerning your classification on kantei, just a restriction, in case of O suriage nakago, it cannot confirm anything. :)

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Hi Jean yes you are right.

However I sometimes think that a well done suriage, where someone has taken time and trouble to finish it well, suggests the sword was held in reasonable regard. (Of course it could also follow  habaki principal mentioned by Guido). By no means a rule, I have seen some beautiful blades where the suriage has just chopped off the end and left it like that. In the case of an O-suriage the only real help it can be is if it indicates what the original size and shape of the ubu blade may have been.

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Julian,

 

Still needed is a full length pic of the blade looking straight down on it - none of these oblique shots.  Then at the same angle (straight down) a closeup of the kissaki/monouchi and a closeup of the habaki moto/tang.

 

FWIW I think early Muromachi from the Muramasa line or Sengo school.  The indications are the hamon goes very, very close to the edge in the valleys (so not Mino), and the tang has to my eye a vestige of either fumbari or a tachi-like curved tang.

 

BaZZa.

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Hi Barry

Happy New Year

Re going close to the edge what about Mino based smiths such as Daido? In his less regular hamon you see the hamon diving to the edge. I went for Mino based on the very pointed peaks in the gunome near the machi.

Agree 100% about the full length shot

all the best

Paul

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I'd say, if the sword bore any resemblance to the Sengo school, the sayagaki would say "Muramasa". Of course this is just a very childish argument against Sengo. The photos are really so low quality (forgive my bluntness, Julian) that any kind of guessing is... just what it is - guessing.

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Hey guys i have been away for a few days i appraciate the comments,i will get some full length images and what not later this arvo,im no expert on old baldes in fact im quite the novice,it was overcast and a crappy day when i took images,the sun is out today so hopefully may show some more of the blade,thank you again guys

 

Julian

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Well i couldnt seem to find a good spot near a window for images,these images are under bright Fluro tube lights i used the cheap flag as the red background seemed to help my iphone get some focus on blade and not the floor,being a old blade in old polish was hard to get it,i have come to realise how hard it is to capture good images of blades,you really need the perfect lighting and background to make the blades look respectable and of course not an iphone,its still not quite as good as it is in hand but i may oneday get some good images,but reading some of the comment about hamon, in quite a few places it almost goes right to the cutting edge,its a kind low hamon if that makes sense? like it doesnt venture to far into the blade,but has many random waves an bumps along the way,cheer's

 

Julian

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Hi Julian,

Thank you for the improved images. The sword looks a lot better than I thought from the originals, I think one of the key indicators to what you have is the masame hada running in to the hamon. I suggest you look at examples of Yamato Sue-Tegai and Shizu work and see if you can see anything similar.

I think it has potential to be alittle earlier that I orignally thought,

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Hey Paul,

 

Thanks for the info i will have to do look up those names,it may not the great Yoshifusa but still something of value believe,im no expert but it sure got my attention when i opened it up i was very suprized,as said i have seen a few old blades but none i have held myself have had such sharp/crisp perfect lines,in saying that i dont spend 10,000 Bucks on sword either so its good for my budget, nothing i have had has been quite as sharp as this one,im serious this is way beyond razor sharp,its almost un touchable it just grabs your skin when sliding your thumb across it,it does look like its been cared for and for someone to try and palm it off as a Yoshifusa i feel it maybe something good,i will try to get some better pics looking straight down on it,

 

Cutting edge is 63cm or 24.8 inch

Total length Tip to base of tang 77cm or 30.31 inch

 

cheer's 

 

Julian

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Hello:

 I agree with those who have suggested Mino, particularly from the first images where togari can be seen.

 A number of comments have been made about nakago, and lest the newbie get the impression that nakago are of diminished importance I would like to point out that while nakago are not a kantei competition point as such, an extraordinary amount of confirmatory information is found there. Getting away from just the "what is it" connotation, the contribution of the nakago to the monetary value of any sword is, to quote Donald Trump,  HUGE!  Pick your own percentage that can be a base line for value reduction, but 50% wouldn't be a bad starting number IMHO.

 Finally Guido's point about tarted up swords with superb habaki, particularly like the example he shows is a good one. Worse yet really are such habaki made up for an absolutely knock out sword for which such doctoring might not be questioned. When we read discussions of the lineage of great swords and the tie through historical association to important owners and events, at least the impression is conveyed that past ownership matters and flows into economic value.

 Arnold F.

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Julian. Either your photographic skills are getting better, or God forbid, some one has done some "garden shed" polishing over the past week since your initial post. There is so much more clarity and detail in the blade as time passes. If the blade has not been worked on, I will start going to Church on Sundays, as miracles really do happen. Neil.

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Hello Neil,

 

I can see you have the best eye's for swords on this forum,you got me mate! i had done a quick 2-3 day final polish process,Hadori with Hazuya,jizuya then kissaki and nugui,as i said 2-3 days just to get a rough idea of what it may look like overall,i can spend weeks on it to make it better if i want, the blade is already perfect shape wise no steel is removed,its not black magic or voodoo, just little stones and some technique a sore back and wrist/thumb is about all it takes,

 

Honestly i only purchased this as a project and when i recieved it it was better then expected so i wanted to know what it could be?,i figured i had all the stuff to do it ,why pay someone for a window polish,final polish is like make up,it can replaced very easy if i want to spend thousands on it and send it away,which i dont,and i can spend as long as i like on it until i finally happy,here is what maybe the most hated images ever to be posted on this forum,this is pre nugui but quick hadori polish with hazuya an jizuya,and some kissaki work,cheer's

 

Julian

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Julian,

I think you know or at least can imagine the type of response your actions may incur here. There are so so many posts about polishing, unqualified polishers etc that I dont believe you could be surprised at any critical comment.

You posted a sword that had a sayagaki claiming it was by an important smith, although the overiding opinion was that it wasn't what it claimed to be everyone said it had potential to be something at least reasonable if not better than average.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a harmless unqualified polish, nor is it possible to polish anything without removing metal, thats what polishing does.

If this was an important blade in waiting you could have done untold damage to it. The fact you asked for opinions here proved you were not qualified to judge whether it was or wasn't important but you carried on anyway.

It may be you have not done any harm to it but just in doing what you did you are flying against so many of the principles discussed here.

At the end of the day neither I nor anyone else can tell you what to do. all I can do is ask you to refrain from attempting to polish koto (or any other) blade yourself.

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Does this happen in other fields of collecting?

 

It never ceases to amaze me how in the case of nihonto, when having lucked on to a potentially rare and old piece, people are overcome by the temptation to dick with it. 

 

Julian, do you really think that what you did has improved this sword? 

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