Enigma - No Idea What I've Got Here?

[dnmmilo]

G'day Mate's,

 

I purchased this sword recently after being shown some really poor pictures and being a bit a novice when it comes to non-showa era blades I've got no idea what it is.  Any info or advice would be really well recieved.  Hopefully the photo's I've attached are good enough quality.  The swords in WW2 era shin gunto mounts but I think the blade is older although as I've said I just don't know enough to be sure.

 

Cheers David

[lonely panet]

sorry but im going to say repro, both blade and saya.

 

it all smells fishy.

 

but what would I know, not the first time other members have disagreed with me

[paulb]

I agree with Hamish. While the overal shape of the blade looks a bit like an NCO Gunto the nakago certainly isn't. I dont know where its from the unfinished tang is not typical of Chinese copies and the shape is too good for most of them but I dont think it is an authentic blade.

[dnmmilo]

Cheers Guys,  I've got a fair number of showa era gunto and the patina on this sword in my opinion isn't faked.  The Tsuba and the rest of the furniture are genuine and fit the sword perfectly.  I'm pretty sure its a genuine WW2 used sword, I just haven't seen one like it myself before.

[lonely panet]

if your not going to take on other opinions from the board after asking for them,

 

then why ask for help from the start???,

 

nothing really points toward evan a very low end showato, especially the bad nakago. Evan machine made blades have a neat finish compared to this shocking thing.

[Geraint]

Dear David,

 

If you want to confirm or deny our suspicions then can you remove the habaki?  Compare the habaki with your swords that you know to be genuine, if you can't remove it then worry, if you can and the machi do not line up then also worry.  Can you see any features in the blade like hada or hamon?  You might post photos of the fittings if you are using them to confirm the origin of the sword but the habaki is a dead give away for most Chinese fakes.

 

Not too long ago I viewed a sword at an auction and from four feet away I would have handed over the cash, it wasn't until I looked at it in hand that I spotted it as a fake.  The copies are getting better all the time, especially with regard to the fittings.

 

Hope this helps.

[dnmmilo]

I'm sorry mate, I thought this was a discussion board, and as such I'm grateful to you for your opinion and for the fact that you took the time to respond.  I respect your view and have taken it on board.  As I said I've got a fair number of Showa era swords and this one feels and looks right to me, I've just not seen one with a similar nakago.  I meant you no offence by responding that in my opinion it was fair dinkum, as I said, I thought, and still do, that this was a discussion and I want to get opinions from as many of its members, for who I have a great deal of respect, as possible.  If I've inadvertently offended you by respondiing, I apologise. Cheers David

[dnmmilo]

Cheers Geraint, I'll do that first thing in the morning and post the photo's.  Its 10:30 at night here and a bit too dark for decent pics.  Its Muji Hada with a clear Sugu Hamon and what looks like a Yakizume Boshi.  Cheers David

[Dr Fox]

Cheers Guys,  I've got a fair number of showa era gunto and the patina on this sword in my opinion isn't faked.  The Tsuba and the rest of the furniture are genuine and fit the sword perfectly.  I'm pretty sure its a genuine WW2 used sword, I just haven't seen one like it myself before.

 

David

I don't find you entirely wrong.

But the tsuba and furniture in your opinion being genuine, does not give the blade any pedigree.

It could well be a genuine "WW2 used sword", but knocked up on any of the occupation areas in that period.

You must agree it does not pay any respect, to the pattern idea of 'gunto'

[Stephen]

Well lets see the rest of the story, tsuka, tsuba, please. cause im leaning towards the hamsters repo saya call.

[tokashikibob]

Hopefully it is WW2 era occupied territory made blade in the end result.

[Brian]

Always find a big contradiction between the nakago on swords like this that screams fake, and the fact that the lines of the blade and the geometry of the kissaki is well done. Used to be that the kissaki was the give away.
So if I had to call it, I would say fake. But not out of the realm of possibility that it is a remounted NCO or made in occupied territories. Getting harder to identify the fakes, as is obvious here.

[dnmmilo]

G'day Guys,  I've attached some more pictures and I'm still unsure.  Let me know if you need photos of anything else. I'm really grateful to you all for your advice and assistance.  Cheers David

[Shugyosha]

Hi David,

 

I'm afraid I'm falling into the "fake" camp: the machi don't line up and it looks like the yokote is scratched on.

 

Also the kissaki geometry as a whole is off - the lines don't quite match up. Like Brian says, better than the worst fakes but still not quite right (for me).

 

I hope I'm wrong and, if I'm not, that it didn't cost you much.

 

Best,

John

[Stephen]

fittings are as fake as they come mate, sorry.

[dnmmilo]

Thanks Guys, It was certainly worth consulting the jury and the verdict is guilty as charged.  You live and learn and I don't say this too often but thank god for Paypal !!.  I'm hugely grateful to all of you for advice and assistance.  Cheers David

[Brian]

Yeah, these pics clinch it. Fittings, as Stephen said, are as fake as could be. Hi at the kissaki is badly done, machi also obvious. Wrap is poor. They got the shape right though.
Good luck getting a refund, should be ok.
Btw..tell PP if they need to refer to this thread for proof it's a fake, there is a 5% fee to them for that service, considering how happy they are to keep taking fees from all of us :rotfl:

[dnmmilo]

Cheers Mate, And good luck with that, I certainly wouldn't be giving up the day job on that promise.