Papers

[Jimmy R]

I am looking to tap the deep well of knowledge here to verify authenticity of some papers. Both swords are free of fatal flaws with all surface details visible.

Thanks for any help

Jim

[Bugyotsuji]

Jim, what do you want to know? Do these papers look genuine or fake?

 

The Norimune paperwork on the right looks right, although aside from the photo, the Mei is only recorded in pencil top left of the envelope, not in ink. ("Studied under Sukemune".) It does go into some detail regarding the blade itself and activity within. No mention of what organization they are. Further paperwork missing? Simply someone's opinion?

 

The older paperwork on the left looks good to my untrained eye, though the -Kuni of Katsukuni on the envelope is hard to see, and I do not know this particular organization. 美術日本刀保存審査会 Bijutsu-Nihonto-Shinsakai. Cannot see any Mei on the nakago. The age, Kanbun, seems to fit, as do the dimensions. If it is a clever fake, then I need to do some more homework.

[Jimmy R]

Yes. Sorry. Real or Fake? The NBTHK papers I have seen look different and I have never seen JTK papers except one set online.

[paulb]

Jimmy,

I dont know th organisation that produced these. They are not from either of the two most recognised authentiaction bodies, the NBTHK or NTHK (either),

​Wihtout knowing the organisation that produced them it is difficult to gauge their likely accuracy

I am guessing hey are either dealer or polisher produced. That doesn't mean they are wrong but they don't carry the commercial authority of papers from the main groups.

[Stefan]

I do think that the  green paper is fake. Please take a close look on the stamp above the  nakago photo. It should have the exakt same  dimensions as the

stamp below the name of the  society. If my  old eyes are not  playjng a trick to me, the  stamp over the  nakago is more  longish and it is broken. There seems to be a gap.

[uwe]

No Stefan,

the gap in the stamp above is caused by the thickness of the glued in picture.

Regards

[Kronos]

I've seen the green one on here before iirc, it was from a dealer and called the ktk or some such. I wouldn't put any stock in either of them tbh.

[Stefan]

No Stefan,

the gap in the stamp above is caused by the thickness of the glued in picture.

Regards

O.K. I see.  Than only  one  question : Why is the stamp  longish an not ident with the other one.

Probably a stupid  question, but after seeing to many fake  papers  i am pretty  nitpicking about such details.

[Guido]

I would have given those papers the benefit of doubt (i.e. being issued by some little known organizations) if it wasn't for the obvious attempt to make them look like (old) NBTHK and NTHK papers at first glance. It is clear that they were made to deceive, and therefore details of the seals etc. are irrelevant.

[Shugyosha]

I would have given those papers the benefit of doubt (i.e. being issued by some little known organizations) if it wasn't for the obvious attempt to make them look like (old) NBTHK and NTHK papers at first glance. It is clear that they were made to deceive, and therefore details of the seals etc. are irrelevant.

 

Hi Guido,

 

You know far more about this than I do, but for me it begs the question of why go to all the trouble of faking the papers and not give the swords themselves a more attractive attribution that would inflate their price? 

 

Kind regards,

John

[Jimmy R]

This topic of papers needs more attention than it is getting. Come on nihontonerds lets see a more comprehensive public knowledge emerge from the great NMB egg!

The white papers resemble those issued by the Juho Token kenkyukai. Although only one single example is on the Internet!!

[Bugyotsuji]

Juho Token Kenkyu Kai, never heard of them, except for this shop where they will charge you 10,000 JPY for writing one. Wakizashi example shown. You seem to have one of their two sheets.

 

http://www.musasiya.co.jp/token.htm

[Jimmy R]

Has anyone been there? I will give them a call. Are they respected appraisers?

[Guido]

The white papers resemble those issued by the Juho Token kenkyukai.

 

There's indeed some resemblance. However, the penmanship of the "certificate" in the first post is extremely poor, maybe even written by a non-Japanese.

[Guido]

..., but for me it begs the question of why go to all the trouble of faking the papers and not give the swords themselves a more attractive attribution that would inflate their price?

 

Probably for the same reason that one finds many gimei of lesser known smiths on swords - people get more easily suspicious if it's a famous smith, and have a closer look at the papers as well.

[Guido]

BTW, 门 is an abbreviation of  門 - it can be occasionally seen in Japan, but is the standard character in China; I wouldn't expect to see it on a Japanese certificate.

[Jimmy R]

Thanks Guido. I live in Japan and this was purchased here so chances are it was written here. It looks pretty typical for the scrawl employed in most documents I see. Also, as I get older my handwriting gets less beautiful, so maybe this is another reason. Does anyone have an example of these papers?

[YOJIMBO]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MURAMASA-Certificated-Sword-in-KOSHIRAE-16th-C-MUROMACHI-Period-C393/291950105510?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37338%26meid%3D76425285729844ec940a9f19564662bd%26pid%3D100085%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D291950105510%26clkid%3D765534650196745536&_qi=RTM2247625

[Guido]

Thanks, Simon!

 

Since the link will not work forever, I'm posting the papers here for future reference.

 

Again, different outlay of the paper, different seal, different envelope, different paper (the one in the first post seems to be some kind of thick vat paper), different penmanship.

[Guido]

P.S.: Not that I think the papers coming out of Musashiya are reliable ...

[Guido]

I live in Japan and this was purchased here ...

 

If it's yours, could you please show us the other side of the paper?

[Bugyotsuji]

Who is this Kobayashi San, and how many other experts work with him in this Teppo-Token Kenkyu (Shinsa-i-inkai), I wonder?

[Jimmy R]

That is exactly what I am trying to get to the bottom of. I will post pictures of the front of the papers (yes it's mine) and update this thread after I call him in the morning.

[Guido]

Piers, the 美術日本刀保存審査会 bijutsu nihontō hozon shinsakai (of wich nobody has heard before) and the 鉄砲刀剣研究会 teppō tōken kenkyūkai are two different entities. The latter is affiliated with he sword shop むさし屋 Musashiya in Ōsaka.

 

Musashiya’s website doesn’t give us any info on the person issuing the papers, 小林幸信 Kobayashi Yukinobu; however, it has been reported that he is a polisher, and a certain website dealer claims that he used to be an executive director of the NBTHK. I did some research, and he certainly wasn’t a director of the main branch (which the title implies), but I wasn’t able to either confirm or rule out his involvement with any of the local branches.

 

We are dealing here with two different topics: the (previously unheard of) organizations of the original topic, and a possible connection of the second paper with Musashiya (brought up by you, but for which I don’t see any evidence so far). Other than that, Musashiya, and the papers issued by Mr. Kobayashi, are not generally accepted by collectors in Japan.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Great Topic. Might be a sticker ?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, definitely related to http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21029-warning-on-ebay-muramasa-blade/!!

 

Ken

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you for the update Guido.

 

By the way, 門 問 words can often be shortened in that way by Japanese people, when the tick is central, a vertical cross. It is considered to be for strictly informal use.

http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q12117973032

 

These short forms are to be distinguished from the Chinese tick which is placed in the gap up at the top left.

http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q14129859884

[Jimmy R]

Update on this. I got hung up on by the gentleman. On Musashiya. I even asked him if it was his penmanship on the email I sent. Oh well. I did however find this Norimune in the Nihonto Koza.