Ken-Hawaii Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Spotted this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samurai-real-sword-Katana-sharp-steel-blade-Koshirae-hirazukuri-antique-/262731252439, & it looked rather weird with no shinogi. It got me wondering about why there are so few hirazukuri blades longer than wakizashi. Is there something in the forging process that makes it harder to make blades that long? I've seen one or two of them, including one gorgeous Muramasa on this site, but why so few? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Ken I think it has to do with lateral stability. In the longer version I belive it becomes a problem. That is why I think even the katana we do see are on the shorter side... -t 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hxv Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I have a hirazukuri daito with 28in nagasa - a gendaito signed Minamoto Yoshimume. The last hirazukuri daito I saw was for sale on nihontoantiques a few months ago. As Ken says, they are rare. Hoanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I was always under the impression that the ridge (shinogi) gave added strength which is needed as the sword got longer. Kind of what Thomas says above but lateral strength as opposed to stability. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 There's a nice example here: http://www.seiyudo.com/ka-090116.htm I remember reading somewhere that longer hira zukuri blades were more prone to cracking during the quenching process but I can't remember where I got that from. Best, John 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0D Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Here's mine, Shimada Sukemune suriage, nagasa: 53.6 cm (guess around 60 cm originally). Late Muromachi 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave R Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 There's a nice example here: http://www.seiyudo.com/ka-090116.htm I remember reading somewhere that longer hira zukuri blades were more prone to cracking during the quenching process but I can't remember where I got that from. Best, John I have also heard of them cracking after an apparently successful quench! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I would love to see yours Hoanh. not often seen in Gendaito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dig1982 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 My thought is that hirazukuri long blades are more prone to breakage and bending on a side ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Hello: Might it not be that on a shinogi-zukuri blade the ratio of the width of the surface in contact with the material being cut, that is from the ha to the shinogi line, is perhaps around .7 or so of the width of the entire blade, thus reducing surface drag in comparison with a hira-zukuri blade of the same overall width and therefore increasing cutting efficiency? Niku, which can be readily applied to a shinogi-zukuri blade, might also add some comparative efficiency to the shinogi-zukuri style. Niku could of course also be a surface contour on a hira-zukuri blade, but the effective contact contour would likely be wider. Arnold F. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Often wondered if their scarcity was related to decreased structural integrity or a lack of popularity. Perhaps they were never en vogue. I have seen where modern day cutting competition participants say the Hira-zukuri shape made awesome cutters. Never saw any remarks regarding how they held up long term. Would like to see the Gendai example as well. I have owned a couple of them, but sadly let someone pry one of them away. Both are pretty long, one with a 28" nagasa and the other is 29". Here is a link to the one I have photos of: http://yakiba.com/Kat_Akihiro.htm 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 The shinogi being thickest part of the blade allows a greater cross section thickness as opposed to the hirazukuri which is flat from ha to mune and along it's entire length. The shinogizukuri format also decreases drag when cutting as opposed to the hirazukuri where the entire side of the blade is in contact with the object. Therefore, you get both increase strength with lower drag. The shinogizukuri also allows the yokote format of the kisaki which increases strength while allowing shortening the tip of the sword. PS: I see Arnold posted while I was typing. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Thanks Ed! that was a wowser fer sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I'm with Pete and Arnold on this.I have one that is signed Muramasa, but I suspect Gendai on it, or maybe even oil quenched at worst. Would love to get a shinsa opinion oneday, but probably won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I have read the same thing many times and in theory I tend to agree with you guys in regards to the shinogi being thicker and producing less drag, less surface area making contact with the target, et.. Also, I have never had the opportunity to cut with a Hira-zukuri blade so I cannot compare them. I have cut with various thickness shinogi-zukuri blades and the thinner the profile the easier they cut. More niku equals more drag, less efficiency. Again, I have not compared them personally, but it makes me wonder if the thinner profile of the HZ would produce much less drag, offsetting the small increase in surface area. I would tend to think the HZ would not be as strong overall as the SZ. Which could be a reason they never became as popular as SZ, and are not seen as much. Just my 2 Yen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 The matter is much older than appears in these comments. The Shinogi (ridge) first appeared in China at least during the Han dynasty and entered Japan as soon as the trade allowed it. Shinogi (ridge) is a natural addition to the flat (Hirazukuri) blades in order to obtain a more performing sword and is mainly intended for long and medium blades. It firstly appeared in Kirihazukuri blades. These blades has the advantage in having a thicker and consequently heavier and more resistant body maintaining a thin, hence sharp, edge thru the application of an angle. The result is a 5 sided cross section. This is a very good enhancement for swords that might strike hard objects as armor or bones. A thinner triangular section (Hirazukuri) is sharper but also more prone to break due to the shocks mentioned. More, the beefier upper section of Kirihazukuri gives more weight to the kinetic action, and this possibly remedied to the lesser cutting ability. With time swordsmiths realized that to move up the Shinogi would mean to add sharpness to the edge, in some way mixing the Kirihazukuri (upper part of the blade, above the Shinogi) and Hirazukuri (lower part of the blade, below the Shinogi) maintaining a five sides cross section. This proved to be the more effective cross section for long blades in Japanese history, with a perfect mix of resistance, weight placement and cutting ability. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterd Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Hi I was under the impression that Hira-zukuri were the sharpest blades. The more acute the angle the sharper the blade. Shinogi-zukuri reach full thickness at approximately 2/3rds of the way up. Hira-zukuri are not at full thickness until the top the blade. Like hollow ground (cut throat) razors Please fill free to educate me However i believe they are more likely to crack in tempering and in battle. Here mine 27"shinshinto blade, gimei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I was under the impression that Hira-zukuri were the sharpest blades. The more acute the angle the sharper the blade. Sure, and that's because they are popular in modern cutting competition. However tatami mat have no armor and doesn't byte back with another sword, the two reasons that made Shinogizukuri blades preferred in wartime periods. When the Pax Tokugawa covered Japan, they remained the fashionable ones among samurai. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 More niku equals more drag, less efficiency. Ed, I was under the impression that Niku was introduced exactly to diminish the Surface of the blade in contact with the soft target. A v shaped blade has more Surface in contact with the flesh than one with proper niku. The curvature of niku displaces flesh not allowing it to enter in contact with the upper part of the blade. This of course applies not only to shinogizukuri blades but to Hirazukuri blades with proper niku as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 http://www.thesamuraiworkshop.com/university/content/7/55/en/niku-hira_niku-and-tameshigiri.html http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/niku.htm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Thanks Pete. I lost the link to Keith's article.Figure 3 in the second link points out what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 No argument here, just relating what I have personally experienced. I know it seem to contradict what is written and has been said. Perhaps it is related to my limited experience. ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Hey -- Batter, batter, batter, batter, yah gotta sw---iiiiiiing, betta... (lol)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 I think cutting resistance has very little to do with it. Shinogizukuri have decreased lateral flex and less likely to bend in that direction which would be tragic. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Is THAT what they have been saying all these years??Cameron from Beuller makes sense now!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Brian -- it actually ends with 'batter' but I changed it to 'betta' using my Chicago accent for a double entendre and some comic relief, even tough Ed really doesn't need that...(I'm a gon'na get it now)! LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken-Hawaii Posted November 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Okay, so the consensus is that hirazukuri blades morphed into shinogizukuri to decrease failure from lateral flexion & stress. Basic physics. So has anyone seen a blade in between what we consider no shinogi & a full shinogi? There must have been quite a few, but I've never seen one. Carlo, have you seen one during your extensive research? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Some very early blades might resamble what you refer to.Shōsō-in Depository have some... : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Some random pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Niku is to provide support for the edge when cutting hard targets such as armor and bone; I notice that many of the competitors in Japanese tameshigiri exhibitions are using very wide thin swords that flex easily when the hasuji is not correct....they have someone onsite to help bend them back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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