Interesting

[Brian]

Chris makes a good point. We are told that hagire through the hamon is fatal.
Let's say that this hagire didn't go all the way through the ha..it was a mm or 2 from the actual hamon..would it still be considered fatal?

I suspect not. A kizu that doesn't go through the hamon is not fatal, so therefore a crack wouldn't be either.
Although, I suspect a hagire would cause blade failure if force was exerted. And the visible part of the hagire is likely not the entire weak point.

[Stefan]

It is fatal. In most cases only  parts of the problem are visible  on the surface.Only grinding very slightly down the blade in the togi  process will revieal the next steps of it.

For the Kenmashi, a nightmare.

I knew a case  of hakobore. Simple Hakobore, nothing more. So no problem ? Of  course not. The layer of the steel has been broken, so it has not been  possible to reduce it up to zero. Every time someone will try to grind it out the next part loosens.

[Brian]

Stefan, you are talking practically. I am talking technically.
By definition, is a crack that doesn't go all the way through the ha, to the hamon line....fatal?
Just curious. We all know that practically speaking it is fatal.

[vajo]

Why not make a radiograph from the blade to see if it is fatal? For me it looks not more like a begining chip.

[Ed]

My understanding and every definition I have ever seen all state that a hagire is a crack which extends completely through the thickness of the blade (one side to the other)

 

Length of the crack is irrelevant. Nor does it have to extend through the Hamon.

 

A full thickness crack is a Hagire.  A Hagire is a Fatal Flaw.

 

Chris, as a newbie you should attempt to learn the correct methods and rules which govern the study and appreciation of Nihonto.  Your statement "It is not a flaw to me", is not the way to learn.  

 

It is a flaw, a fatal flaw ! Period !   Of course, if you wish to collect swords with fatal flaws, that is your business.  I'm sure if word gets out there will be many offers for you to buy them.  Keep in mind when in the future, you decide to sell these fatally flawed blades, you will have a difficult time, as most collectors aside from unknowledgeable newbies won't be interested.

 

As far as this one receiving papers, almost certainly it was sent to shinsa out of polish in order to verify the mei before wasting money polishing a gimei blade.  Once the hagire was discovered, it is usually up to the owner to decide how to proceed.  

[vajo]

Ed only for understanding. Where is the difference between this hagire and a chip same size. A chip is not fatal or is this false.

[Stefan]

Per defintion an Hagire is an Hagire. It does not mater if it  is only visible on one or on both sides . Therfore, in every case it is fatal.

Even if one do not see the hagire  on the opposite side, in so many cases it is there ! Super fine  an nearly invisible.

How should  I explain this. It is the same trap as an  bad fukure underneath the surface . You can´t see it, but it is there.

Probably an example is more helpful.
Some Years ago a client  brought a blade. This has had an story telling vertical stripe in the ha on one side and a slight bend. He wanted me to bend the blade back, I denied because of the fear of hagire, so he did it by his self and the hagire opend also on the other side of the blade. Before it was only very  faintly visible on one side.

The lesson of this accident ?

Hagire is major struktural problem even if it is invisible on one side. In most cases it goes through, even one is not able to see it.

[drbvac]

Radiographic analysis would be of no use in determining depth of a crack as it would only be visible on the x-ray if completely through the blade and the radiographic beam passed through parallel to the side of the fracture.

 

Same as on teeth - except since teeth are not metal the opposite sides of a fracture can both be seen and the break appears as a small elipse or a lighter area - only way to get a clear black line is parallel beam = rarely happens on teeth -= impossible on a hagire unless it is wide open .  

[Brian]

I agree with Ed. I guess I am just being agent provocateur by pointing out that literal definitions are sometimes not the answer. If you have a hagire that doesn't reach the hamon line...you could grind a "V" like a chip, and it wouldn't be classed as fatal by the literal definitions. So we sometimes have to use logic rather than trying to fit things into neat boxes again. If the blade is cracked, it's flawed and dead. No use trying to be analytical and trying to define how dead it is.
I don't agree with some who say it isn't art though. Although I do not want a sword with hagire, I would rather have a fully polished and decent sword with hagire, than a flawless junk out of polish eBay special kazu uchimono that will teach me nothing.
 

[vajo]

Many thanks for explain it. I learn a lot now and a different view on hagiri.

[Ed]

Chris

I think your question has been answered above, but to be clear our personal opinions in the differences between a chip and a crack don't come into play.  

The rules are the rules, they are set by the powers that be. We don't have to agree with them, yet we are required to accept them if we wish to play.

[vajo]

I go with Brians point. The sword is fine to enjoy. Hagire or not. I will never be an investment or a collecting treasure. But it is a decent sword for study in perfekt polish and a i catcher. 

[Stefan]

Yes, it has been an fine blade, and yes the polish is well done. Just believe me, in a few years, You will only see the nasty hagire.

Why ? It is the result of the years of study.

Also keep in mind, if  You  want to sell such an blade...it will be  a nasty suprise.

[JohnTo]

The question has arisen as to why the polisher completed his (no doubt) expensive work on a blade with hagire. Made me wonder if the hagire developed after polishing.  My reasoning for this is as follows.  Much of the curvature on a Japanese sword occurs during yaki-ire when the mune shrinks more than the ha, resulting in a blade where the edge is in a state of tension.  Hagire can develop during quenching when imperfections in the steel result in the tension pulling the steel apart.  In this case the flaw may have not been sufficient to have resulted in hagire.  However, during polishing, steel is removed from the ha, thus increasing the tensile load.  Polishing also involves water, the great enemy of steel.  Perhaps water seeped into minor flaws or spaces between the (martensite) steel grains during polishing, causing some corrosion within the steel after the polishing process had ended.  The tensile loading in the ha, always present, may have caused the small flaw to increase, until catastrophic failure, metal fatigue, resulting in hagire.  Rather like a car windscreen, where a small scratch can sometimes cause the windscreen to shatter months after the initial damage. 

 

Just a thought, John

[Stefan]

Unbelievable. The next Hozon-blade with hagire. Because of the hagire the blade is slightly machi -okuri. For  an unknown reason Tsuruta San do not mentioned it.

http://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-harima-daijo-tadakuni-the-first-Generation

[b.hennick]

I see the feature that you refer to but I do not see it as a typical hagire. I think that this one needs to be seen in-hand. Thanks for pointing this out.

[vajo]

Barry, excuse my question. Why is this not a typical hagire?

It is hagiri in the temper line.

 

  

[Gunome]

Hagire are perpendicular to the ha, this one is not.

[Kronos]

It's not a traditional hagire as it isn't perpendicular and is wider than typical, however for all intents and purposes it can be classed as one as it goes right through the yakiba so the structural weakness would be the same.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I think that this one needs to be seen in-hand.

I concur. It passes thru the very tip of the Hamachi. If it is a crack, the tip should fall apart. My 2 cents. 

[Stefan]

The blade is slightly machi okuri .....And no, tempering cracks are not only  vertical. Karasuguchi by example.This one goes through-

It is identical shaped on both sides of the blade. That is unusual for an normal "forging flaw".

And no, hagire  can be  pretty wide open. I´ve seen  this many, many times in the past  35 years. It is an missunderstandig of this flaw that they are thin and only absolut vertical.

A tempering crack is always a serious problem, especially in the habikimoto area. In olden times things as Yakidashi and Yakiotoshi have been done . Why ?

It is an weak  point in the bladestrukture at the habakimoto.

Therefore a hagire there is a problem.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I concur with you in every point you give however in this particular case

The blade is slightly machi okuri

 

and in the process seems to me the togishi separated in two this feature.  If so why the tip of the hamachi remains ? This is what puzzle me, not the shape, dimensions or orientation of the feature. Possibly I miss something...

 

EDIT : the oshigata reports what I see as an activity and the color in the picture is different from the one of the hagire. Not sure  if they are the same thing now...  

[Stefan]

Take a close look on the nakago funbari. The  Hamachi has been moved as well as the Munemachi. Now the Problem is  hidden under the habaki,  the  sharpend part is O.K. This  a traditonal way to "solve" such problems.

I don´t like this as Umgeane...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I edited my post. Seems you're right.

[ROKUJURO]

..... Much of the curvature on a Japanese sword occurs during yaki-ire when the mune shrinks more than the ha, resulting in a blade where the edge is in a state of tension......

John,

 

in YAKI-IRE, the steel in the YAKIBA forms into martensite, which has, as you may know, a higher volume than the surrounding steel. So, nothing really "shrinks" in a blade, but the YAKIBA expands, which has the same effect of an increased tension (read compressive stress) in this area. 

[Lee Bray]

And yet another, though this one has no papers.

http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-osaka-ju-takahashi-nobuhide-gotaiten-sword

 

Same place as the Tadakuni but slants the opposite way.

Listed as having hagire so Tsuruta-san does not differentiate between slanted or perpendicular cracks and rightly so.